Okay, so here is the thing.
We're all friends here, in one way or another. Some I know for a long while, and others not as much. Regardless, I have listened and respected the opinions of all of you, so I hope now you respect mine when I say some things that have been said today were quite disappointing.
So let's start with Koriachi's statements from earlier today, which eventually led to others joining in the discussion at the "Loosening the Transmog Restrictions
" suggestion thread.
Koriachi wrote:Ever since this was implemented, demands keep on going, players already want free gear to vendors and shop and items that you shouldn't be able to transmog be added to the list so it doesn't matter anymore what will change regarding this feature so why not? We can just have it disabled by command the moment we don't like it.
I was OK with this feature even if I am not using it currently and not sure if I will but as expected players will only want more and with every small change the server will become more custom/fun compared to the blizzlike experience players signed on for when they started playing here.
1) Nobody has demanded free gear to be added to any shop.
- The community had one problem at hand - by popular demand, they wished the old, and no longer available, Tier 3 to once again be available. It was expressed in the Tier 3 suggestion thread. The easiest way to get it done would be adding it to a vendor so it's understandable that the community would be vouching for that. However, the staff has voiced themselves against it, with I being one of the ones that does not believe that vendor cluttering is the answer to the problem.
Since the players at PrimalWoW will eventually have access to this gear, it sounds more than reasonable for me that the players at TrueWoW also have means to acquire it. However, in no way I believe that it should be simply given away as it is at a shop or in-game vendor. There must be a way to equal it to the effort that would be put by Primal players on acquiring it, so it remains fair to both sides.
I have in the first moment thought of adding it as a reward for participating in the Scourge Invasion event, albeit I now believe that wouldn't quite be enough. So I thought of something else, both encouraging players to do old things once again and less harmful to the Blizzlike perspective: Naxxramas challenges!
Players would be rolling a dice (RGN based system) each week in order for them go get a chance of retrieving a piece of the tier for their respective class. In order to unlock this weekly roll, they'd first need to clear Naxxramas in either difficulty (plus any other condition, haven't thought of it carefully). The roll would have a chance of failing, in that case a small compensation of 100g would be given (or any other compensation). Otherwise, tier pieces would have equal chance of dropping. Once one piece is acquired, it no longer "drops". To claim that "reward", there would be a web interface.
However, this would still not be "blizzlike".
2) The Slippery Slope fallacy.
- Here you really, even if unawarely, introduce something quite dangerous: the slippery slope fallacy. It's dangerous - you might wonder why - because others tend to follow it, but we'll address this specifically at a later moment.
Let's first focus on what we have at hand. So, from your point of view, we shouldn't add anything new to the Transmogrification system because it would cause people to make more and more demands. This raises few questions on whoever analyses what you say from a logic point of view:
You mention that "there's a command to just disable it if you don't like it anyway" in a detrimental way, as if more "custom" changes would be shoehorned by commands that just hide them. Well, where does such assumption even come from? And - resuming the questions aforementioned - why would that necessarily be a bad thing? Because something is, by your definition, custom, it doesn't default it as detrimental.
- 1 ) How are you sure of it?
2 ) Why is it necessarily a bad thing that more changes will be demanded?
3 ) Would a change be considered a slip in the slope even if it's a quality of life improvement?
4 ) You said you're not using it. Why is something that you don't use, and you're not forced to use in any way, detrimental to your Blizzlike experience, judging the fact it can (as others have said) be completely ignored?
Quite the opposite: these commands were made specifically to ensure the "blizzlike" experience everybody enjoyed and signed for is preserved in it's full extent. We cared for that, we ensured that. At first NPCs were visible to others, so I even went made them only visible to people who has it enabled. As others have mentioned, unless you've been following the forums or seen someone mention it at world channels, you'll most likely never come across this feature - we are not even advertising it (which to many is considered a real shame).
You tell us you think it'll just get worse with more custom demands and these demands will be detrimental to the "blizzlike" experience people signed up but you fail to present a logical reason to make those who read you believe that. So your entire argument ends up based on that statement.
And then there comes Sevi and pictures it in bright blue:
demonlord wrote:It starts to feel like a downward spiral indeed, small custom changes are added alot lately soon you can remove the blizzlike from our description of the server, even if its just visual, why not change barrens to cata barrens, it looks cooler and its just visual etc.
I once made a joke with Matsy when these discussions started. He might even have got mad at that, but I really didn't mean much harm. Basically, I asked if the situation could get even more dramatic and satirised it by saying "Oh no! What's next, Godzilla striking the town?". Because it's really hard to conceive how easy it is for people to accept that, in their opinion, if X change is bad, then everything resulting from it will also be bad and any other changes should be seen through the same scope.
What I tried to say when I made that unfortunate comment that day got pretty clear on Demonlord's comment. Suddenly, we are on a "downward spiral" and "changing Barrens to Cataclysm Barrens" gains any relevance to the matter being discussed. Just check the definition the site I've linked before gives as an example for this fallacy I'm talking so much about:
Example: Colin Closet asserts that if we allow same-sex couples to marry, then the next thing we know we'll be allowing people to marry their parents, their cars and even monkeys.
In that sense, yes. After allowing legendary items to be transmogrified optionally
, then yes, definitely, the next thing we'll be doing is changing The Barrens to Cataclysm's The Barrens. I know some people aren't used to forums, but is this really the best you guys could come up with?
Now we are back at Kori again:
Koriachi wrote:Did you think that maybe some people would like this feature without more custom stuff being implemented as it was discussed initially? But hey you need to please the majority of the community who want free items in the shop and all items to be available in the tramsmog list with a pretext that if others don't like it they can just quit using it and move on.
- 1 ) Did you think that maybe some people WOULD like this feature to have more assets?
2 ) Also, are you aware that those who wish to just use the feature without any further "custom" stuff can still do so?
3 ) I think that the pretext that if people don't like something that they are not forced to use anyway and can completely ignore is a quite good one to just move on. After all, returning yet again at what was said previously, how is something that you will literaly never come across unless you wish to affect your gaming experience in any way?
4 ) This would also reassure something already said, but nobody at any moment mentioned free items at any shop (and now this time quite clear and resolute about it). It was never suggested that free items should be added to any shop.
Funny thing is, we came from a server that had a huge Murloc costume at Underbelly, and a hut with completely random npcs called Zuzu, Bubu and Tutu parked at Antonidas Square. And somehow a feature that is out of the reach of your eyes (and you evidently don't use) so sore to you?
Matsy wrote:Not really you are just refusing to see the issue the same as others.
Once we start adding features that don't even exist it starts a downward spiral of "fun server" shit getting added.
Don't matter that you can toggle it off, it shouldn't be there.
Transmog itself is all fine and dandy, blizzard added it so its fair game, but adding things that blizzard didn't even add is going too far.
- 1 ) You're also refusing to see things the way the others see it. And in the end, it just comes down to a matter of opinion anyway. What is "detrimental" to some, isn't to others. The same way what is "blizzlike" and what's not "blizzlike" is quite suggestive.
2 ) More slippery slope talks. Features that don't even exist and are completely optional, so even that you wouldn't even know they were there. How can you assume more "fun server" shit will be implemented, and how can you judge the changes that by any luck end up happening to our server as "fun server" shit?
3 ) What can be considered as going too far? We've lots of things that blizzard didn't have, and they're all taking place to, in some way, attempt to provide a better gaming experience. How is something, that in no way affects the game play or the experience that is provided (judging you can pretty much obliviate it as you wish) be going too far?
mcheka wrote:I was probably the most vocal opponents of transmog in the original thread.
I wasn't the first, nor the only one to point out the dangerous precedent it would set.
The damage was already done the second TrueWoW added transmog. I hate to be the guy who said "I told you so", but of course people will be making more and more custom demands. And why not? We are now a custom server already, so it makes perfect sense. The floodgates were opened, and the storm has arrived.
Given that we're already in custom territory by having transmog in wotlk, it's silly and hypocritical to argue about which arbitrary set of "future Blizzlike" rules we should allow, instead of our own community-driven arbitrary set of rules. So, anyone with a +1 to the original proposal should logically only be a +1 here. Not a +1? Then you're just picking and choosing which custom content we should have, and which we shouldn't. Either get rid of the whole transmog system, or go all-in.
I don't see any storm going on. I don't see any floodgates open. I see people making suggestions - everyone has the rights to do them. The fact things are being suggested, doesn't mean they'll be accepted, or even be accepted as they are. Some things are reasonable enough and to these we might try to find also reasonable ways to make them happen, which again are also subject to discussion.
I agree that the what's blizzlike and what's not blizzlike argument support quite falls to the ground due to several reasons. If not because, as said before, it's suggestive and limited by each individual's perspective of things, but because the implementation of it in essence isn't blizzlike.
Whatsmore, there were several other changes to the transmogrification feature that were suggested but seeing how unwelcome anything new is, they'll likely never leave the paper. These are examples of the improvements there were planned that I can think of from the top of my mind:
- 1 ) Don't require items to be in your bags to transmogrify them (blizzlike, wod or whatever).
2 ) Once used to transmogrify once, you'd not need to keep the item on the character anymore, it would be permanently stored and usable for transmogrification at any time. This comes in with Legion, and in fact, we wouldn't implement it the exact way retail does. For example retail will make it account wide, and saved when items are acquired. We would work around that to maintain the activity incentive. Might even replace #1, but it's a long term change.
3 ) Allow cross item type if it works properly (blizzlike).
4 ) Vaguely suggested: allow retrieving destroyed/lost quest rewards once.
This however isn't the first time someone tries to bring in something new to the server and gets frowned upon based on prejudice (no, I won't mention prodigy's box). But look at Bottle and his events. People complained so much at how "unblizzlike" events were, didn't give a damn to any of his projects and to top it claimed we were trying to turn TrueWoW into some other realm name here
, with, by their words, "retarded find the GM events". Which in fact, was quite frivolous - just look how successful the events ran by the COMMUNITY at PrimalWoW are. We, however, decided to step back and pull ourselves away entirely from the idea of running any events. Etro had in mind a thing or two (for PrimalWoW) but his time drifted away or he lost interest, perhaps both.
It was never the idea of this feature to start an uprising or leave part of our community disgruntled. In fact, I was (and I think we were) quite happy that both sides found a common ground. So to prevent further discussions of such nature, I went ahead today and rejected all of the suggestions regarding this (and I'll probably be rejecting all the new ones, unless something extreme makes me change my mind, which is doubtful to happen).
Also for the record (since apparently it was a big deal that I didn't make up a voting for the subfeature before adding it) it looks like that my senses of what the community may like were still functioning properly, up from this moment at least: http://truewow.org/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 77#p381477