My comparation of specs

#1 » Post by **Fastor** » 04 Oct 2014 18:18

Fireball spec (no buffed: 3206sp, 1391%hit, 53.29%crit, 885haste, 433spirit)

Frostfire bolt spec (no buffed: 3206sp, 11.93%hit, 53.19%crit, 945haste, 433spirit - only switched ring from Fireball)

Arcane (no buffed: 3501sp, 11.32%hit, 36.50%crit, 1473haste - failed gems, didnt switch from Fireball)

l did this because l like to calculate what is more benefiting for mages. Linking here for those who are also like to make calculations. Seems to me, lm going back arcane

#2 » Post by **Myaoming** » 04 Oct 2014 20:43

You can't really compare specs' DPS that way. You need to take an average value from several tests done for each spec. Why?
So many things in a raid can affect your DPS including the raid's DPS, tanking, buffs, RNG, and lag in some cases. In order to filter out those factors, you need a proper average value.

For example there's a huge raid DPS difference between your Fireball spec screenshots and your Frostfire Bolt spec screenshots. Just by comparing the 10th position (18.3k vs 15.2k DPS), you can tell that the first raid had a much higher DPS. Now how does that matter?
A higher DPS raid means faster encounters. A faster encounter means a higher chance to keep a bigger portion of the initial burst DPS coming from Mirror Image + BL in this case.

In other cases, a very low DPS raid (lower than any of the DPS in your screenshots) might give you enough time to pop 2x Mirror Images, which is unfair for comparision.

And nice DPS you got there

#3 » Post by **Blacklustersoldier** » 04 Oct 2014 21:42

so you pulled that much dps with no raid buffs?

#4 » Post by **Myaoming** » 04 Oct 2014 22:48

Of course he had buffs. By "buffs", I meant the difference. For example: a raid with a Demon Warlock vs a raid without one, or a raid without a 13% increased magical damage debuff. Flame Cap vs no Flame Cap, flask vs no flask, potion vs no potion, pre-potion vs no pre-potion... Just many things

#5 » Post by **Blacklustersoldier** » 04 Oct 2014 22:56

yeah, I know, but meant the way he stated his stats without buffs xD

if you really wanna test facerolling dps, do it on dummy, and do it either over a period of time, or up till a certain amount of dmg and see how you get the better result, with mana issues, and stuff... or something... idk

like myao said, dps can change depending on buffs, raid setup, duration, dificulty, etc etc etc

#6 » Post by **Myaoming** » 04 Oct 2014 23:04

It might be more accurate on a dummy, but it's not exactly accurate. A dummy test doesn't always reflect a steady ICC encounter. A quick example: Crit is slightly more valuable for a Frostfire Bolt spec, which means, the Crit you're gonna miss due to the lack of raid buffs while testing on dummies will have a higher negative effect for that spec.

#7 » Post by **Fastor** » 05 Oct 2014 00:50

Nah, l didnt explain right. (At all)

l used Saurfang as base for testing unlike dummy since both fire specs are very very depended on raid buffs. For arcane just stick shamy haste totem in ground to have its rotation nice, for fire, crap. You need a whole bunch of Hot Streak proc and that is made by critical (Shaman ele aura + totem, or boomkin aura, than you need dudu and priest buff for spirit which you convert into critical and on top on cake like a cherry comes BoK which add +10% on spirit which can impact on critical as high as 8%).
So, they both have same raid buffs, l asked for second mage in group for FM. Idk why Virdo hates mages

Also they both had Flask+Bloodthirst weed, and as for Flame Cap, l count it as part of Fire spec rotation rather than flask since ofc arcane cant use it. Only benefit l didnt used are Potions of Haste and Potions of Wild Magic. l would only add l didnt care for mana consumption.
Oh and yes, both raids are good enough not to trigger second Mirrors and time of whole combats are certainly not different for more than 30sec.
So yea, l pretty much wanted to test specs under raid ambient and with ICC buff but without stopping casting to follow tactics aka moving. l believe l made it. Tank and spank boss in icc with all same buffs. On dummy it wouldnt be as close as this.
Anyhow, why l said unbuffed stats is because lm too lazy to write down whole gear and it would still need from who ever read name of gear to find its value and calculate all together how much that gear bring stats. Pretty much what should be looked at specs are critical at fire spells to be as close as 100% and at arcane to be able to during icy veins+t10p2 proc cast and finish 4xAB and start casting AM which is about 1350-1450haste after fix.

#8 » Post by **Fastor** » 05 Oct 2014 01:05

Myaoming wrote: So many things in a raid can affect your DPS including the raid's DPS, tanking, buffs, RNG, and lag in some cases. In order to filter out those factors, you need a proper average value.

Yea but Tanking, Buffs, Lags we can call same in these tests. Raid DPS as time lasting combat factor, we can call even as l said above.
As for FFB spec if you believe l didnt gave it proper chance, l can repeat test if you like. But for FB and Arcane, trust me, its cool. lm playing FB long enough to know its up and downs and as for Arcane as long as there is 1 ele shaman lm cool. Priests for +3% hit and paladins for +3% damage we cant get rid of them so we got their buffs too always.

As for RNG well yes and no. When is RNG bad for each spec? FB and FFB, Hot Streak doesnt proc after second cast aka critical is not 100% and you accidentally try to cast Pyro and got screwed. Arcane similar stuff, After fourth AB, Missle Barrage doesnt proc so you need to cast fifth AB or even sixth AB if your luck suck to proc AM.
For trinkets they pretty much proc right after icd is gone. l know that as lm planing to use Mirrors, Combustion and Icy Veins at same time so l use addon for tracking time.

Oh yes, l forgot to add up there. l did got Power Infusion at FFB but l removed that buff for equal testing.

#9 » Post by **Kindzadza** » 05 Oct 2014 01:50

Fire with end-game gear is better than arcane in many ways... Looking at how ICC encounter are made, AB spam is not worth it over fire. You should compare the specs with full raid recount and not just this boss where you spam 1 button (macro).

#10 » Post by **Reaper4vp** » 05 Oct 2014 09:43

These kind of tests simply cannot give you valid comparison results in only 3 fights with different raid setup. Pretty much everything Myaoming said

#11 » Post by **Crown** » 05 Oct 2014 11:56

http://web.archive.org/web/201010291516 ... /Fire_Mage

(Look at the third parse)

http://web.archive.org/web/201010120721 ... cane_Mage/

(Look at the first parse)

According to World of Logs WotLK achieve, there is a 2662 DPS difference between a Fire and an Arcane mage, in favor of Fire.

So you might say this is a partially AoE fight, but you used this fight to compare the specs. However, we can all agree that Rotface is the best example of single-target DPS for ranged.

http://web.archive.org/web/201009151028 ... Fire_Mage/

http://web.archive.org/web/201009160015 ... cane_Mage/

Fire mage is one of the top (if not the top) single target DPS in 3.3.5a patch.

#12 » Post by **Fastor** » 05 Oct 2014 13:15

Kindzadza wrote:Fire with end-game gear is better than arcane in many ways... Looking at how ICC encounter are made, AB spam is not worth it over fire. You should compare the specs with full raid recount and not just this boss where you spam 1 button (macro).

True, in whole raid fire would be better but that was not what l wanted to test. Just Saurfang.
Also its not that Arcane will lose in every fight apart Saurfang, there are also Festergut, VD and we might even say Rotface and Princes but at princes recount pick up dmg done on wrong target too such as inactive prince and LB explosion always proc Hot Streak so it pushes Fire specs a little.
Also there are mobs between bosses on which FB spec is better than both FFB and Arcane spec. FB and FFB have Ignition but FB also have TTW. Arcane have TTW and Arcane Potency +30%crit that proc from Arcane Concentration which proc like always when done aoe on 10+ mobs but that is not good enough comparing to talents that increase Flamestrike.

Just to make point again, lm not saying with those recounts that Arcane is better at all bosses, or even its top on overall list. No, l am just making on Saurfang. In the end FB spec is better on overall even compared to FFB spec. Why? Because there are few bosses that tactic does not require to attack add. No matter aoe or direct dmg on add. And fire specs because of dots, Ignite most are better but FB have TTW which unlike on bosses where only few abilities can trigger TTW, on adds every slowing ability triggers and bring+12% dmg. Just imagine Sindragosa ending flight and you need to nuke all iceblocks or LK25N where you need to kill multiple adds.

@Latrommi
As l said to Myao l stand behind that these screen shots for FB and Arcane can be counted as average. If you all would like l can redo FFB spec.

@Crown
Damn this links takes time to open. Will answer when they do.

#13 » Post by **Fastor** » 05 Oct 2014 13:32

Ok links not opening. For Rotface l disagree, you need to move a lot because ozes, green goo from pipes, green goo on ground that is spit by ozes and moving from cone of Rotface when he spit.

Festergut on other hand might be used as training dummy since mage may stop casting only for Iceblock in case he didnt (as l never do) collect 3 stacks of debuff. But if he get spore, mage must return to tactics and run to stacking spot to share debuff, that moving is most time vital for raid but lower DPS.

#14 » Post by **Kindzadza** » 05 Oct 2014 13:58

Also even if it means losing some DPS which you won't, fire is just more enjoyable to play.. Arcane is one of the most boring PvE specs I've seen.

Even Mutilate rogue is more fun!

#15 » Post by **Crown** » 05 Oct 2014 14:04

Ok links not opening. For Rotface l disagree, you need to move a lot because ozes, green goo from pipes, green goo on ground that is spit by ozes and moving from cone of Rotface when he spit.

Might be some connection problem with the web archive. You can check them later. Anyway these are the top parses, which means several things such as excellent movement, reaction time, maximum uptime on boss from both of the spec users.
Also top Arcane mage couldn't be so unlucky as opposed to top Fire mage, who pulled 4K DPS more.

Festergut on other hand might be used as training dummy since mage may stop casting only for Iceblock in case he didnt (as l never do) collect 3 stacks of debuff. But if he get spore, mage must return to tactics and run to stacking spot to share debuff, that moving is most time vital for raid but lower DPS.

Well mages may use blink to go to the spores them rather then Iceblock. Currently I'm lazy to post the links of the parses on Festergut, so I'll just write it here. A fire mage did 24390 DPS on Festergut, with runners-up being bear druids and fury warriors. Arcane comes nowhere close. This just proves how are fire mages buffed in this patch.

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