[TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

User avatar
Vaen
Posts: 722
Joined: 19 Sep 2012 16:04
Location: Colombia

[TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#1 » Post by Vaen » 25 Apr 2016 05:53

[This is initially aimed only at TW]

[hide="A little background on me"]I've been actively playing arena in Truewow since the Spermik merge which occured in 2012. I've played in high rated 2v2 teams and some 3v3 teams too on almost all the arena seasons we've had since then. I play pvp actively on 6 characters (and have a few others with which I do PvP at times, including arena). These are: Priest, Paladin 1, Paladin 2, Warrior, Hunter, Druid[/hide]

With last season's movement of rewards from the 3v3 bracket to the 2v2 bracket—a change which caters well to the server's real amount of pvp players— and the 5 minute MMR unlock I think the server's overall arena situation improved significantly and so it is time to propose another change in rewards for the upcoming season.

The suggestion consists of lowering the rating requirements of arena rewards, in particular Wrathful Shoulders and T2 Weapons, and is somewhat aimed at reducing these 3 undesired behaviors from arenas:
1. Dodging.
2. Wintrading (I must admit though, that our staff is competent in punishing this behavior most of the times).
3. Farming low MMR/rating teams (many times practicing #1 at the same time).

With the current rating requirements, the amount of population in our server with access to T2 weapons is the grand total of 2 players. Additionally, a total of 8 teams have enough rating to purchase Wrathful Shoulders. To try to convince you that this is still less than the portion of people who had this gear on retail here's a link to the 3v3 worldwide ladder in retail back in September 2010 (Season 8), where the 100th team is above 2800 rating and T2 weapons required 2200 to purchase.

As I've said before in our previous arena rewards revamp thread, arena gear at this point in the game was never supposed to be a symbol of status with maybe the sole exception being the Wrathful Gladiator's Tabard. Taking another look at the current ladder, rather than the class composition of teams, we can see that most teams that get to 2200 rating just stop playing, seeing as that particular rating was their goal. This encourages the 3 behaviors I mentioned beforehand (if you don't believe me about #2, recall the mongolian arena teams that got banned for wintrading). With the exception of one team, none of them even tried to get rating for T2 weapon because the requirement is too high.

This post from the last thread we had perfectly encompasses what I believe arena should NOT be about: "Crawling" to a certain rating then stopping playing or having more patience than everyone else to stay in queue an entire day, or dodging more skilled teams, etc. To further exemplify, I believe this is what getting Wrathful Shoulders should NOT look like (nothing personal against them, kudos on having all that patience): team. To note: amount of matches vs teams that awarded +1-3 rating.

If we brought down the rating requirements to, say, 2000 rating for Wrathful Shoulders and 2200 rating for T2 Weapon, we'd not only see more people in the server with this gear, but we'd also see more teams trying to get it and ultimately getting them because it is more achievable. It would boost arena activity, the way I see it. It would also encourage people to not just stop at a certain rating, and to actually try to go for rank 1 (this is also why I believe T2 weapons could be brought even further down, to a 2000 requirement).

Bringing down the rating requirements for tier 2 weapons has the additional advantage of discouraging the use of pve weapons in pvp (healers especially) and countering the amount of shadowmournes present in arena by giving good weapons to people without high ilvl PvE weapons. A similar statement can be said about Wrathful Shoulders or Wrathful Helm even.

The ratings I proposed (2000 for Shoulders, 2200 for T2 weapons) and everything else I said is open to discussion. I even believe lower ratings (why not 1900 for helm?) would be desirable but the ones I propose should serve as a good reference point. Thanks if you took the time to read this.

Regards.
Vaen - Human Warrior
Verwandlung - Human Lock
Parallel - Human Priest

Follow me on Twitch

User avatar
Ancestor
Posts: 255
Joined: 20 Dec 2013 10:26
Location: Estonia

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#2 » Post by Ancestor » 25 Apr 2016 06:21

i like the idea

User avatar
Zekai
Posts: 34
Joined: 16 Sep 2012 23:55
Location: Colombia

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#3 » Post by Zekai » 25 Apr 2016 07:10

Vaen wrote:As I've said before in our previous arena rewards revamp thread, arena gear at this point in the game was never supposed to be a symbol of status with maybe the sole exception being the Wrathful Gladiator's Tabard. Taking another look at the current ladder, rather than the class composition of teams, we can see that most teams that get to 2200 rating just stop playing, seeing as that particular rating was their goal. This encourages the 3 behaviors I mentioned beforehand (if you don't believe me about #2, recall the mongolian arena teams that got banned for wintrading). With the exception of one team, none of them even tried to get rating for T2 weapon because the requirement is too high.
/agree

First of all, some ambientation on my agreement. I might be explaining the obvious, but there are always some people who ignore the obvious anyways, so here I go:

PvP is an important element of the game that synergizes a lot with itself, aswell as with PvE. In PvP you start with battlegrounds, farming honor (and a bit of Arena Points from daily RBG win) and buy basic PvP gear, after that you are somewhat suited for arena, where you can improve your PvP gear. So, PvP feeds PvP. You also learn basic class mechanics and class/spec perks, aswell as reflexes by PvPing. BGs in particular expose players to (supposedly) all other classes and specs so that the player can experience their skills, mechanics and playstyles.

After a while doing arenas, you get better at PvP (or are supposed to) and can climb the ladder and upgrade your gear by playing and getting rating by winning. It is smart to balance your PvP stats with PvE items, in order to maximise your damage/healing/utility stats once your resilience is high enough. So, PvP gear can(and should) use PvE items (many PvP BiS items are PvE from raids, duh).

However, PvE doesn't rely on PvP at all. You can farm your gear and get your best available equippments and weapons to raid without ever setting a foot on BG/arena. Which is why most hardcore PvEers don't really care about those of us who enjoy PvPing, and raid for PvP's sake.

NOW COMES THE TRICKY PART!

The current situation in PvP is sick. BGs are sick, arenas are sick, and even the recently enabled PvP event "Wintergrasp Battle" is sick.

In BG:
0- Eternal queue timers.
1- BG team unbalance. Either one team has more players than the other, or is massively more geared.
2- Dual queue. A Horde player logs an ally char of his and queues BG on both, then enters on both and leaves with his ally character or just wanders around doing nothing/AFKing with it while playing with his Horde character. This happens without a doubt, and happens with Ally players logging Horde toons aswell.
3- AFK/Leavers.
4- 2vs2 or 3vs3 BGs.
5- BGs where a team just goes full PvE gear and overwhelms the other team because they got a geared healer. We all know that unless you are heavily PvP geared, surviving PvE geared player is really hard (or you can die in seconds, if you are lightly geared)
6?- Idiots who have no idea on how to PvP, don't listen to advices, and still enter BGs (like that feral/balance druid with resto gear that DPSs in cat form). This might be intentional. Noone can be that stupid...can they?

The problem with all this is that BGs are THE gearing grounds. So players that are just gearing an alt will take way longer than it should to even get full furious just because BGs are either hard to get, and when you get them, you better pray you have a chance of winning.

Now, remember Vaen's suggestion is about arenas. I'm merely refering to BGs as they are connected to arena, as doing arena without stepping in BGs is really, really hard. Now comes the arena part.

Arenas:
As described by Luchi:
Vaen wrote: 1. Dodging.
2. Wintrading (I must admit though, that our staff is competent in punishing this behavior most of the times).
3. Farming low MMR/rating teams (many times practicing #1 at the same time).
4-Eternal queues.

Once you pass through the hellish sessions of sickly BGs to get started for arenas, you are met with these undesirable behaviours. People are sabotaging the arena scenario by making it impossible to advance to others, in order to gratify themselves by getting "THE" gear, and then just go have fun in BGs, pretty much stopping to queue in arena to actively PvP.

This is how even a Furious team, skilled ehough to beat some other team with higher gear, gets blatantly dodged by Relent/WF players. And this progresses as said team little by little gears up, making more and more teams dodge them and eventually not allowing them to access the higher WF gear. When a low geared team with some skill gets dodged by everyone other than a skilled WF team, you know that said Furious team will have a hard time advancing from there.

However, other people will just play it "smart" by queuing vs teams they know they have really high chances of winning against (snipping) or teams they arrange into letting them win (wintrading). Thus, people who are unworthy of the gear, or who don't competively PvP, are the ones getting the gear in the end.

In conclusion, PvP gear shouldn't be something unattainable in a PvP server. While I understand the point of "earning it", said point loses its point (lol) when people can't even earn it, not because they don't try, but because they can't due to external circumstances. As Vaen said, PvP gear isn't a symbol of status, but should be something players can acquire when they put the required AND proportional effort on it.

PvE gear can be obtained if you play long enough (and have some luck), because PvE is constant and repetitve, which means raids will happen and nothing other than buggs can make them unclearable. PvP, however, requires other people in order to advance.

To make a perfect example: Imagine how many raids could be cleared if you needed 50 players in average instead of 10/25. (Like AQ, for example) With current server population, people wouldn't be able to do raids, or at least they would take WAY LONGER to do a raid and get gear, no matter how long they waited for a raid. Or imagine if bosses dropped only 1 item per kill, and had chance of dropping nothing at all (Not even Emblems of Frost)

This is what happens with PvP. Your starting gear is faced with the problems I stated before, and your endgame gear is hardly obtainable due to player constraints. This is why I agree with Vaen's suggestion of loweing the rating requirements. In the end, it's not like people would have to work any less to get it, but instead would allow hard workers to get what they want, instead of frustrating over impossible requirements they cannot fulfill, not because they don't have the skill/will to play, but because others won't compete vs those who do.

If you think about it, more attainable WF T2 weps and WF shoulds won't make such a huge difference to actual PvPers. It would only hurt the ones who rely on that slight advantage to win, or those who have PvE benefits because they have longer farming times in raids. In contrast, it would bring balance against those PvE "privileged" or those who obtained their PvP gear the cheap way.

If you don't believe me, just try to fully PvP gear a character from scratch, WF shoulds and T2 wep included. You will see it's almost impossible, and undescribably long and tedious, if at all achievable at the moment.

@WG, it's sick because 9/10 times one side has way more players than the other. No matter the number of Tenacity you get, WG is a team battle. Even if you are invincible (jk eternal CC), while you are in some point, the rest of the enemy just completes objectives with numbers, not kills.
Abandonation - Level 80 Undead Priest
Numquam - Level 80 Human Priest
Arcticx - Level 80 Human Mage
Many other dead or unused alts.

User avatar
Wilcox
Posts: 1587
Joined: 16 Dec 2012 13:37
Location: Kebabland

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#4 » Post by Wilcox » 25 Apr 2016 07:26

im alright with that but wouldn't this kinda.. you know. people will have to play less to get what they want

then again it might encourage others so yeah. im up for a trial why not

User avatar
Dropdead
Posts: 424
Joined: 22 Dec 2013 18:19

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#5 » Post by Dropdead » 25 Apr 2016 15:16

Yeah make shoulders 1600 rate and T2 1800 rate lol . Dont want to sound rude but what is the joy to get pretty much free items (they will be if u change the ratings) . Rating requirements are fine (even lower than they should be in my opinion) What is the problem is lack of enough high rated teams , but what do you expect in unbalanced bracket like 2v2 swarming with SM+healer teams . Ppl will still stop queing once they get the rating for the rewards again , this wont bring any higher activity , will only make the game easier and I believe it's easy enough already . Atleast getting 2350 requires u to have high win rate while 2200 u can get with just spaming games (many examples at the ladder)

-1

User avatar
Roel
Founder
Posts: 6364
Joined: 17 May 2010 14:51
Location: Planet Earth

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#6 » Post by Roel » 25 Apr 2016 15:21

Last time this was discussed there were indeed quite some people who believed that the rating requirements should even be higher. If those people are still around then the current requirements should be a good compromise for both parties.

User avatar
Vaen
Posts: 722
Joined: 19 Sep 2012 16:04
Location: Colombia

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#7 » Post by Vaen » 25 Apr 2016 19:11

Atleast getting 2350 requires u to have high win rate while 2200 u can get with just spaming games (many examples at the ladder)
I have 95% winrate and 2200 rating on my priest's team and the only way to get 2350 rating now would be to play over 300 matches against low rated teams over the span of several days.

But hey, if you still don't want to recognize the low amount of people who play arena, I don't have any problem with letting people in full pve gear in bgs 24/7. I'm just trying to help thick-headed people like you realize that having one team with t2 weapons over an entire season is not blizzlike at all.

I'm done with this suggestion, clearly the community has no interest in it.
Vaen - Human Warrior
Verwandlung - Human Lock
Parallel - Human Priest

Follow me on Twitch

User avatar
Roel
Founder
Posts: 6364
Joined: 17 May 2010 14:51
Location: Planet Earth

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#8 » Post by Roel » 25 Apr 2016 19:20

Vaen wrote:I'm done with this suggestion, clearly the community has no interest in it.
4 agree
1 disagrees

Of course interest means it needs more replies but this topic isn't even a day old...

User avatar
Dropdead
Posts: 424
Joined: 22 Dec 2013 18:19

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#9 » Post by Dropdead » 25 Apr 2016 19:27

Nothing personal Vaen , but you cant expect 2350 rate with just 140 games done even if your win rate is 95 % , ofc u gotta work harder than that and I find it normal imo .

User avatar
belendor
Posts: 950
Joined: 18 Nov 2010 21:02

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#10 » Post by belendor » 25 Apr 2016 19:34

+1 I might be able to get more PvP gear now, no skills sry :p
Belendor lvl 80 prot/holy paladin - The original

No need to mention the other paladins.

Best word in west flemish 'toetoet'

User avatar
Gnurg
Posts: 2394
Joined: 28 Jan 2013 19:38
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#11 » Post by Gnurg » 25 Apr 2016 19:55

With PvE items having such a huge impact on the PvP scene (trinkets, off-pieces, weapons), it would be nice if all PvP items were easier to pick up. You could lower the requirement for the gloves, head, legs and chest piece too, Imo.

+1
HAI
CAN HAZ STDIO?
VISIBLE "HAI WORLD, IZ GNURF!"
KTHXBYE

User avatar
Vaen
Posts: 722
Joined: 19 Sep 2012 16:04
Location: Colombia

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#12 » Post by Vaen » 25 Apr 2016 20:10

Nothing personal Vaen , but you cant expect 2350 rate with just 140 games done even if your win rate is 95 % , ofc u gotta work harder than that and I find it normal imo .
If you replaced the "2350 rating" for "rank 1" I would absolutely agree with you, but you still don't see my point, take for example the rank 86 3v3 team from the link I posted, they had 2832 rating with a 139 - 21 score, that's even less winrate and pretty much the same number of games, did they have to do some "huge" effort to get their pvp gear? Of course not. The rank 1 team did put an effort into that, you can see they have much more games.

That team I mentioned probably got tier 2 weapons after 50 games or so. Hell, you're not even looking at the statistical significance of games: they are much harder to get on Truewow. Those 3 players probably logged one afternoon, played 50 or so games and instantly got their weapons.

As I said before, you're still looking at gear as a symbol of status, it's not. Rating is, if anything.
Vaen - Human Warrior
Verwandlung - Human Lock
Parallel - Human Priest

Follow me on Twitch

User avatar
Dropdead
Posts: 424
Joined: 22 Dec 2013 18:19

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#13 » Post by Dropdead » 25 Apr 2016 20:42

I can get your frustration for the lack of high rated teams that que but you just cant compare retail and TW , this change will just make the server even more noob friendly than it already is , it wont raise competition just get a lot more ppl T2 when they dont deserve it . Having disabled hc pve or SM(or atleast its proc) will make the ladder much more appealing than this imo .

User avatar
testeromir
Posts: 134
Joined: 24 Aug 2012 10:39

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#14 » Post by testeromir » 25 Apr 2016 20:51

+1 for Vaen's idea.
Truewow:
Proghaan
Testera
Woden
Taman
Mudu
Testeram
Gemark
Frithell
Nibghaan

Primalwow:
Proghaan

User avatar
keez
Donor
Posts: 1124
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 03:50
Location: Dalaran Sewers Torch

Re: [TW] Reduce rating requirement of arena rewards

#15 » Post by keez » 25 Apr 2016 20:59

+1 for Vaen
maybe that way i can finally get my first wf piece xD

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests