fight duration in pvp

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papastrumff
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#16 » Post by papastrumff » 23 Oct 2017 23:16

Well I did enough of testing by playing few bgs in a row to know it is off going oom as fast. The reason why caster goes oom is obvious, prolonging the fight by 40% while the mana pool stays the same and what I could see from tests, it is even more than 40% longer because defensive cds come up more than once in one fight (sham rage, barkskin) that was not supposed to be as long.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#17 » Post by zant » 31 Oct 2017 18:41

There is more than what you say here regarding the mana cost decrease for PvP.

1- During TBC, spells had a fixed cost per cast. It was wrath that turned it into a % of base mana. However, due to gear and stat changes during Vanilla -> TBC -> Wrath, this problem was solved in retail while it remains an issue in PW.

Why? Because our mana pools are not in wrath levels and our mana regen is changed from what it was in TBC (talents, costs, gear, etc). As a disc priest in vanilla I had about 12k mana pool in raid with buffs, and lots of mana regeneration from gear to compensate the healing spells cost increase we had then. However, atm we have smaller pools (8-9k), 0 regen (as PvP gear gives no spirit or mp5 at all, unlike wrath gear) and our spells still cost a ton of mana (it takes almost 500 mana for a single healing spell while regen is under 100mp5 while casting)

2-Non-mana classes have the advantage in "prolongued" fights.

This is because rogues and warriors can simply keep doing damage while any mana class ooms. By prolongued, we are meaning fights that happen more than once every 30s (like in BGs, where enemies can engage or ress before you finish drinking) or that last longer than 30 seconds (due to defensive CDs or a healer). In fact, you could say almost every DPS non caster class has ways to substain their mana (Judgements of the Wise, Shamanistic Rage, Aspect of Viper) due to talents while the pure casters don't. I say this both as a healer and as a DPS.

In other words, due to PvP damage nerf, it takes way more mana to kill a target and there's almost no way to replenish it mid-combat.

3- PvP is not meant to be 1v1.
As a Hunter I can no longer burst enemies down and simply succumb to 2 dots without any of their casts going off on me.
Hunters are weak vs DoT classes. But on the other side it takes forever for my mage to even try to kill you while you just pew pew me down. I can even oom that way because instants cost so much mana. Currently rogues are OP because they can chip your HP in a stunlock in 1v1, but we don't ask for a stun nerf, do we?

Anyways, the third point means that all classes should have the sustain to withstand fights with multiple opponents at the same time in BG/arena. It's not normal (in wrath) that your mana pool is depleted after killing 1 opponent and then you have to die/flee/drink when the next comes because you have 0 mana. That's not how BGs are supposed to go.

4-As for absorbs...

I might be biased being a priest and a mage, but I see no reason to nerf absorbs when only 2 classes use it. The current absorbs are at about 1.4k dmg absorbed (while a single normal heal is about 1.8k) so they are already weaker than raw healing. They absorb about 2-4 crits from most classes, but that's how they are supposed to be in wrath. The fact that unlike healings it isn't halved by aimed/poison/mortal is something regarding the mechanic of absorbs themselves, not the strength of the spell.

Considering numbers, they are as strong as they need to be.

Anyways, considering all the above I daresay a 20% mana cost decrease it a tad too low. You are not compensating for expensive spells only, but also for small mana pools and low regeneration. I'd go for a 30 or even 40%. Since we are not increasing healing or damage done by casters/healers and instead just increasing their activity time it seems fair enough. You are normally supposed to CC or nuke a healer, not just wait 30s till he ooms. And casters are not supposed to go oom after 30seconds on a single target.

EDIT: On PvP Gear. REMINDER that wrath has RBG rewards for all players daily with lots of honor so they can afford the 68k cost of each piece. In primal you get 200-400 on non-CTA per BG, so farm time is considerably longer by wrath standarts.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#18 » Post by Dunkelstein » 31 Oct 2017 20:14

zant wrote:
31 Oct 2017 18:41
As a disc priest in vanilla I had about 12k mana pool in raid with buffs, and lots of mana regeneration from gear to compensate the healing spells cost increase we had then.
How can you disregard my 1v1 example but use a raid buffed example yourself?
zant wrote:
31 Oct 2017 18:41
This is because rogues and warriors can simply keep doing damage while any mana class ooms. By prolongued, we are meaning fights that happen more than once every 30s (like in BGs, where enemies can engage or ress before you finish drinking) or that last longer than 30 seconds (due to defensive CDs or a healer). In fact, you could say almost every DPS non caster class has ways to substain their mana (Judgements of the Wise, Shamanistic Rage, Aspect of Viper) due to talents while the pure casters don't. I say this both as a healer and as a DPS.
From my PoV as a hunter, I still struggle to beat casters at 0 mana with the exception of druids if I am lucky enough to purge Innervate. Besides, non caster classes have to eat up after combat, too. They don't have the luxury of selfhealing or barriers.
zant wrote:
31 Oct 2017 18:41
Hunters are weak vs DoT classes. But on the other side it takes forever for my mage to even try to kill you while you just pew pew me down. I can even oom that way because instants cost so much mana. Currently rogues are OP because they can chip your HP in a stunlock in 1v1, but we don't ask for a stun nerf, do we?
Rogues counter priests and warlocks, like they are supposed to.
As for mage vs hunter, mages can literally just stand ontop of hunters 24/7 and negate all of their ranged abilities if you play it right.
Of course 1v1 is not a way to balance things, classes are very much supposed to play like rock, paper, scissors and cover each other's weak spots. However like you probably noticed while thinking of examples yourself, we don't really have big BGs where non casters receive heals by other classes, that's why I keep saying we shouldn't make any rushed changes with the limited 'testing' we have.

I am not saying that you don't have a point - it's obvious that healers oom too quickly. But slapping some estimated percentage band aid on it won't fix anything, it will only create other problems for different classes.
What you need to do is look at the mana cost for spells relative to mana pool and mp5/mp5 while casting in full pvp set. Go to PTR, compare the values for lvl 70 and lvl 80. The only reg talent missing for spriests for example is Dispersion, this is the only thing I and everyone I asked could think of.

If we don't get enough input, I guess it's fair to just try out the percentage nerf. Atleast it will get more people to try it out and boost pvp activity for a while, and we can keep making adjustments from there.
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#19 » Post by majstorfanta » 01 Nov 2017 00:13

You guys need to know that we are still at the begining of things.

Go on PTR, take any caster class and get yourself 78 pvp gear with hateful off sets and then compare, it is not exact ofc but you can see some things. For example, lvl 70 ele shaman casts 16 lesser heal waves in starter pvp gear while on 80 you can cast 20 before going oom, it is not big of a diference really.
Lvl 80 shaman in starter gear is at 12k mana pool and I know that the end game geared has 21k mana pool (look up mosthated on truewow armory), so low gear is the main reason why people oom next to the one that is longer fights due to dmg nerf.

I disagree with zant on bigger mana cost reduction % than what dmg reduction is, so only thing that should be added is mana cost nerf that is the same as dmg nerf.
Everything else will even out eventually.
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#20 » Post by zant » 01 Nov 2017 02:28

What I wanted to emphasize was the difference between vanilla and TBC atm. My point is that gear/talent/mechanics in vanilla and TBC are different than in wrath.

Spells RIGHT NOW cost almost as much as they did back in vanilla phase with healing spell cost nerf. The big one. PW:S costing about 500 mana and Flash Heal over 450. But back then we were in PvE gear with tons of regen and buffs and our pools were huge. That's why we could withstand 5-10 minute boss fights casting constantly.

Currently, spells cost the same as they did back then, however, not only are our pools smaller but also our mana regen from gear is almost non-existant. That's what I wanted to illustrate. In WOTLK PvP gear you can at least find that all pieces have mp5 or spirit (when you pick them) and that's why you can sustain long fights. Current gear has none and that works against casters that play in a wrath core. TBC and vanilla used fixed spell costs. Wrath uses base mana %. From lvl 60 to 70 our base mana pool increased but our total mana decreased, so spells became more expensive but our stats don't match it.

And this isn't just about healing. Imagine if in vanilla phase healing AND damage spells costed 40% more mana while mana pools remained the same. Indeed, with TBC the damage done by spells and skills increased exponentially (which is why we needed a dmg nerf) but due to base mana % cost from spells their costs increased almost twice while mana pools didn't get much bigger in PvP.

And yes, non-mana classes have to eat or heal. But a non-caster class can do it's whole damage even with 1 HP while an oom mana class can use a spell every 15 seconds, perhaps

It's not only healers that oom too quickly. Casters in general do too. I've seen all, from Elemental Shamans ooming in 1 minute to druids, mages, priests and locks (Yes, locks have only affli spec viable atm, but they have to waste both GCD and HP to get mana and their cost is still high.

If you look at current PvP status, all non-mana classes have "unlimited activity", all non caster mana classes have LONG activity (enh sham, hunter, ret) and caster-only and healer classes have about 1 minute and a half before going pretty much oom.

Also, the role of healers alone get dampened, as it is a role that depends on keeping others alive as long as possible. If you can only heal for about 50 seconds (with noone even touching you) before you are useless (unless you can use a mana CD and noone counters it) might aswell go DPS.



Well, the real issue isn't the mana cost of the spells as it is the almost absolute lack of regen from gear. We could boost mp5 but since classes have so low spirit/mp5 from gear the boost would have to be HUGE and it would not benefit hibrid classes that use mana so the only option is to reduce the cost of the spells.

This is an option that only increases activity time, as I said before. It would not mean a damage output or healing done increase, just a longer time actually doing it. This means non-mana classes wouldn't have a real dissadvantage, and hybrid classes would also benefit from it.



Also, it's not only dispersion for spriests, but let's use priests as examples:

Current Priest PvP gear gives 0 spirit and 0 mp5 while casting (mp5wc henceforth), both in main set and offpieces.

In Wrath you have dispersion, yes, but you also have spirit in the main pieces and offpieces if you want that give you mp5. And spells are "proportional" to mana pool because Wrath gear gives way more stats than TBC and vanilla one does (due to change in spell cost mechanics from fixed to base mana % based)

LVL 70

BG gear = 0mp5wc given.
S1 gear = 14 + 8 = 22 mp5wc in healer set, 0 mp5wc in shadow set. (Yes, only 2 out of 5 pieces give you any mp5wc)
S2 gear = 11 + 18 = 29 mp5wc in healer set, 0 in shadow set.
S3 gear = 10 + 15 = 25 mp5wc in healer set, 0 in shadow set.
S4 gear = 14 + 20 = 34 mp5wc in healer set, 0 in shadow set.

I've searched the S1 to S4 sets of all the other casters and numbers don't change that much (Rshaman and Hpala get high crit but almost no mp5). I also searched Offpieces for all casters (from cloth to plate) don't give that much mp5wc stat either, if at all.

LVL 80

I could spam stats but as there's no reference so I'll summarize:

BG set = 161 spirit (about 80 mp5wc with Meditation). This is only counting the main set (helm, shoulds, chest, pants and gloves), but we could also add the spirit/mp5 you get from offpieces.

From Hateful to Wrathful you get progresivelly more spirit on set pieces and spirit or mp5wc on offpieces, the ratio is almost 1:1 with the intellect you get on every caster piece.


Currently you have 0 mana regen in any form from PvP gear, Gladiators and Brutal gear will give under 40 mp5 while casting stat while offpieces will give pretty much 0 too.

If you go full PvP gear, you are left with almost base spirit and BASE mana regen. There's absolutely no way to change this unless you use PvE gear and sacrifice resilence and even then it won't be enough to compensate.

Well, we could agree that it would be nice to go to PTR and test mana cost compared to mana pool. But the mp5 part of the test doesn't need much calculus when you can plainly see gear gives pretty much none.


My point being that since we have no way to compensate for the utter lack of regen from PvP gear, it would be more direct to reduce mana cost from all spells than it would be to calculate how much average regen we should get per season and apply it then change it every season because TBC gear and Wrath gear are just that different in stats.

The percentage reduction would also work with new gear as the mana pools don't get much bigger over the whole expansion.
What you need to do is look at the mana cost for spells relative to mana pool and mp5/mp5 while casting in full pvp set.
Well, all my spells cost 5-10% of my total mana per cast. So in 20 casts I'm out of mana. (Everything is 400-500ish mana out of a 9k pool with 90mp5wc)

But the issue is (as I have repeated over and over) not only the mana cost of the spells, but also that TBC PvP gear gives insignificant mana regen while Wrath gives substancial. Even if you compare endgame TBC to Wrath mana pools/spell cost, you won't be able to compare the regen stats and thus won't get good answers.

This is why my approach is not to increase mp5 in PvP to try and make similar to Wrath, but instead just decrease mana cost to keep it like TBC gear intends you to play. Why? Because gear is just too disimilar for casters and healers in TBC and Wrath.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#21 » Post by zant » 01 Nov 2017 02:53

majstorfanta wrote:
01 Nov 2017 00:13
You guys need to know that we are still at the begining of things.

Go on PTR, take any caster class and get yourself 78 pvp gear with hateful off sets and then compare, it is not exact ofc but you can see some things. For example, lvl 70 ele shaman casts 16 lesser heal waves in starter pvp gear while on 80 you can cast 20 before going oom, it is not big of a diference really.
Lvl 80 shaman in starter gear is at 12k mana pool and I know that the end game geared has 21k mana pool (look up mosthated on truewow armory), so low gear is the main reason why people oom next to the one that is longer fights due to dmg nerf.

I disagree with zant on bigger mana cost reduction % than what dmg reduction is, so only thing that should be added is mana cost nerf that is the same as dmg nerf.
Everything else will even out eventually.
You should understand that TBC and Wrath have substancial differences that make them too different to try and see them the same way.

Yes, we are just starting and it's true that from Hateful to Wrathful there's a big difference in mana pool and regeneration. However, I've checked the whole seasons of TBC and we don't have that gap. Both mana pool and mp5 w/wnc don't increase over the time in any significant amount because the regeneration stats DON'T EXIST in most of the gear.

So no, you could be full brutal with full last season PvP offpieces and you will still oom in 30seconds. I guarantee it. Time won't fix this.

As for % being over/under dmg reduction:

Mana cost of spells is not a direct equivalent to DPS. Using priest as example again, having my Shadow Word: Pain cost reduced from 570 to 456 (what would be a 20% cost reduction) won't solve the issue in long term. With a 20% reduction you would be turning my 20 casts before I oom in 25 casts before I oom. This is in no way a solution. If you compare the damage done between a caster and a warrior over 20 seconds, then the damage done between the caster and the warrior over 1 minute, they both will deal proportionally the same. Just because the caster won't go oom in 30 seconds doesn't mean you will have a harder time killing it...unless the only way you can kill a caster/healer is because he's running oom b4 you engage him :D

This is about making casters and healers able to last over "longer than a minute" fights. A 20% cost decrease won't make a difference because TBC pools/regen won't make it a difference over the whole expansion. In fact, it will be worse as people get more resilence and HP but you will get oom at pretty much the same rate.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#22 » Post by Dunkelstein » 01 Nov 2017 03:33

I said the only talent that's missing is Dispersion. The missing spirit is what I meant by comparing costs to stats. Still, like you said yourself, aren't Shadow Priests supposed to go for the pieces without Spirit anyway? I just have a strong feeling that hybrid specs will benefit too much from this.

So by reducing costs casters will still oom eventually, but slower? Or is it just enough time to use mana reg CDs again? Also have to keep in mind that higher reg is better against mana burns than just lower cost. Uggh, too many questions

Guess we'll just have to try it out. This isn't going to be the one tweak to fix everything. If that's what it's meant to be, better leave it as is.
As of now it's not like we're going to ruin some super serious pvp environment, anyway. As long as we keep making adjustments if it doesn't work out..I don't see why not. So after long debate
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#23 » Post by Vaen » 01 Nov 2017 04:02

+1. Zant exposed all the important points, albeit in a lengthy fashion.
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#24 » Post by zant » 01 Nov 2017 04:48

Actually, in wrath core/gear any smart spriest would go for mooncloth set instead of satin because the base crit chance you have as shadow is too low to mind it, and the resilence reduces it further. It's wiser as a shadow to go for spirit set and spirit/haste offpieces (also, you get 20% SP from spirit) to have more regen than going for crit and oom faster.

However, at the moment neither the healer set nor the DPS PvP gear give you that chance. Neither give mp5 or regen in any considerable ammount(offpieces don't even give it) or crit.

As for the hybrid classes...well, I don't see any ret pala going oom in BG. In fact, I get oom and they still have full mana while hitting me nonstop (because judgements of the wise). If you go for other hybrid classes, I don't think they will get any greater benefit because their mana gain talents and skills atm work fine enough, and they don't really go oom in "long term" fights.

Yes, casters would go oom but slower. That extra time would allow their role to be fulfilled better, but not enough to have them cast nonstop forever. Most of a caster's mana CDs can be countered pretty easily in PvP, this is something you do in wrath and should be doing here too.

@drains/burns. It is true that higher regen is better than lower cost vs drains/burns, but current gear (meaning WHOLE TBC gear, till brutal) doesn't give anywhere near enough regen to consider it anyways. Burns will RIP your mana and you won't regen it in time, so it's better to have a lower requirement of mana for a spell than having to wait for mp5 to kick a while before having a single cast.


Lvl 60 base mana pools is 1244 mana. Lvl 70 base mana pool is 2620. In TBC since spells had a fixed cost it didn't matter much, but in wrath as spells cost a % of base mana, this means that spells now cost almost TWICE while our mana pools remained almost the same (compared to vanilla).

With full Brutal gear, the mana pool is around 11k. The mp5 is under 200 while not casting, and around 125mp5 while casting (checked in PTR)

Currently, my mana pool is 9kish, and mp5 is 159 while not casting, and 89 while casting. I even have some PvE still atm.

As you can see, stats-wise the mana issues aren't something that will be solved with time or gear, and regen is too little to even think of relying on it. A 20% cost decrease won't do much when most spells cost over 500 mana. This is why I consider a way bigger decrease to be in need.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#25 » Post by Bradonja » 02 Nov 2017 19:33

Actually, as a spriest you don't get 20% sp off spirit, that's a 45pt talent and isn't accessible atm. Even if it was, you would have to abandon inner focus+meditation talents in disc to pick it up, gimping your mana even further.

By using the primal mooncloth set you lose a bunch of resilience, which is imo the most important stat for a priest right now - without a good amount you just can't tank warriors rogues and hunters at all. The mooncloth set is very light on stamina as well. Personally I would only consider using it vs. specific teams that are mostly spelldmg based and not bursty, e.g. affliction warlocks...

I agree that a mana cost nerf for all spells would probably be beneficial for pvp overall, but I would go carefully with 25% first (corresponding to the % dmg nerf) and play with that for a while before deciding if further reduction is needed. It will definitely be noticable, a 25% dmg nerf completely changed the meta - a 25% mana cost reduction for all spells will be very noticable as well and probably have consequences we can't 100% predict.
For example, ret paladins go oom pretty quick if they stand still and cast holy lights - which is sometimes required, especially in 2v2 - and they are one of the strongest classes/specs in pvp, partially because of this. This mana cost reduction would make them even stronger.

As for the shield nerf (priests and mages), imo if you're gonna nerf anything in pvp right now, it would have to be arms warrior damage. After that, nerfing shields the same % as dmg reduction might be reasonable.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#26 » Post by majstorfanta » 02 Nov 2017 20:11

zant wrote:
01 Nov 2017 04:48
With full Brutal gear, the mana pool is around 11k. The mp5 is under 200 while not casting, and around 125mp5 while casting (checked in PTR)

Currently, my mana pool is 9kish, and mp5 is 159 while not casting, and 89 while casting. I even have some PvE still atm.

As you can see, stats-wise the mana issues aren't something that will be solved with time or gear, and regen is too little to even think of relying on it. A 20% cost decrease won't do much when most spells cost over 500 mana. This is why I consider a way bigger decrease to be in need.
Well it is still a diference. For my ele shaman for example it is from 7k mana pool starter gear to 10k mana pool in brutal. That on top of 25% mana cost nerf should be fine in the long run.
I oom as ele even in less than a minute now but I still do not agree with making it more than 25% mana cost reduction until we see how the first nerf plays out.
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#27 » Post by Numquam » 02 Nov 2017 20:58

I said wrath core/gear. I know Twisted Faith is not available but I was pointing as to why spriest go for pieces with spirit in wrath since Dunkel asked. Atm gear doesn't give spirit or crit, just SP and resi and thus it makes no difference.

I'm repeating myself but 25% won't be nowhere near enough. Spell cost increased to double the amount that it was in vanilla phase and pools didn't get much bigger. With spells costing over 500 mana (not even the heavy ones like Greater Heal), a 25% mana cost decrease will turn 20 casts into 25 casts before the player ooms. And the more PvP gear that comes available, the more stamina and resi players get, it means more casts will be needed in a fight but the regen won't be there to sustain it in the whole expansion.

Just imagine that rage and energy skills costed twice as much to be used. I know it's not the same, but you get the idea.

Going for shield nerf: I already stated that shields are already weaker than heals by almost a 20% margin (my PW:S absorbs about 1.4k dmg while my Flash Heal does about 1.8k healing). Don't get mad at the mechanic just a couple of classes can use because nerfing this would mean nerfing a not really OP healer and a not really OP caster as the only casters that can readily use absorbs are mage and priest. Absorbs are made to be instant and strong, aswell as ignoring mortal/wound effects but being vulnerable to dispels. 1.4k absorb is about one or two big crits, and that's what shields absorb in wrath pretty much.

Mages already take more than enough damage from pretty much all sources so even if you nerfed warrior damage, you would have to nerf also hunter and rogue and feral and everything else to make it fair or else mages won't have any survavility. They are the only caster that can't heal themselves (other than bandage) and thus rely on their CD barrier and the expensive mana shield to survive even a tad more.

As for priest. The only PvP healer that relies on shields for mitigation is disc. Nerfing shields means nerfing discs but no other healer will be affected at all and priest are nowhere OP enough to deserve that. If you want to nerf shields, might aswell reduce heals in PvP overall (for example, nerfing HoTs because trees are hard to kill?). Having heavy mana costs and weakened heals means DPS have an unfair advantage over healers.

Ret palas: A mana cost reduction wouldn't do much if they played properly and used Flash Light (which costs only 200 mana even as ret compared to the 470 my Flash Heal does as Disc) considering they have replenishment and Judgements of the Wise to get their mana up anyways. Ret have always been good healers in Wrath core due to Sheat of Light, but their current regen makes them better than even a full holy paladin which makes no sense. Ret is blessed by Blizzard and that's why their normal heal costs 200ish mana while Holy Light costs 856 mana.

This was made so that rets could heal while having a small mana pool compared to other casters and offhealers (because they keep a small mana pool while elemental or spriest or boomkin have a caster-sized mana pool). At the moment all the other casters have no regen and their spells cost over twice what Flash Light does so this is why rets are so strong in healing.

The mana cost reduction is NOT something to compensate only he damage nerf that was implemented. If it was, then 25% would be enough.

But you are then ignoring the fact that spells indeed cost twice as much as they did in vanilla (average 500 mana per cast with a 9k pool and tell me how much you can cast) And not only healers. Most casters have 400-500ish mana cost on most of their spells, going up to 700-800 on others.

And you would also be disregarding the fact that all casters will have close to no mana regeneration from gear in PvP for the whole expansion.

If 25% is enough to balance the dmg nerf...what % is needed to take in account the other two points too? Surely not 25%.

The scenario is such that some classes had to get mana cost decreases in PvE too even when it's an enviroment with heavy regeneration from gear, buffs, consumes and procs, just to be viable. Think about it.
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#28 » Post by Dunkelstein » 02 Nov 2017 23:10

Hunters don't deal too much damage since the nerf anymore. Warriors, rogues and retribution paladins are still dealing too much damage to everyone, though (I'm probably biased).

The problem with reducing mana costs for everyone across the board is that retribution paladins and ferals already are really strong.
Today I was facing a Retribution paladin in healing PvE gear in 2v2.... He didn't lose any mana, and even after killing his partner I could not put a dent on his mana/HP bar. Despite me stacking all my CDs and 4 interrupts in a row (+heal reduce from Aimed Shot), and him not using any CDs for 30+ seconds straight.

So yeah, like I said I am all for trying it out. But maybe it's better to start slow and see what happens.
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#29 » Post by Numquam » 03 Nov 2017 01:35

That's because ret palas proc an instant heal that costs 206 mana and every time they judge they get like 800. Also they have 2% mana gain proc from Judgement of Wisdom and 2% mana proc gain from Seal of Wisdom. They also get 1% mana every 5 seconds due to replenishment and not to mention the mp5 from blessing of wisdom. (This is all taking in account a ret pala in holy gear, since ret healer is viable atm)

They are already as OP as they can get, as you stated. Meanwhile all the other casters have spells that cost over twice that and no form of regeneration other than their 3-5 minute CDs. If you think you have a hard time killing a ret pala, now imagine what any other caster has to deal with as they will oom waaaaay faster than you as a hunter do.

You are not gonna oom a ret pala but you can oom any other caster or healer in 1 minute. That's how things are at the moment. This is a serious issue.

You are not supposed to kill a healer by ooming him in 1vs1 anyways, not in a short period of time at least. But the problem is that if you have a hard time trying to kill a ret healer, now imagine how casters feel when they do not much more damage than you, can't reduce healing and oom after 30 seconds of constant action, tops. And imagine how healers feel when they oom before a ret healer does and this causes their PvP partners to die.

While this might "empower" hybrids, it's not like they are pure healers and you are supposed to outDPS their healing done, counter or CC them. Not let them run oom to win. But if you want to give casters a chance to be able to win in PvP vs anything that doesn't die in 30 seconds, you will have to empower hybrids a bit too. It's just that pure casters will benefit way more, balancing things overall.

In fact, rets are OP overall. They are even more OP as healers than their holy counterparts and than most other casters. Which is why we need to buff all so they become more equal.
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Dreadnought101
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#30 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 03 Nov 2017 06:37

I dont feel that OP...
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