Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

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Kailen
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Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#1 » Post by Kailen » 09 Jul 2017 21:50

People who have played on primal in vanilla phase probably remember that shadow priest and ele shaman were not really a viable classes for the raid.
I can not speak for elemental shaman but from what I have seen Im afraid what TBC brought to priests is not really enough to make them as good and more or less equal to other casters. Many classes got rebalance changes for the new expansion, so I do not see why this should not at least be considered.

In my opinion mana cost of the spells is the biggest problem, so Im suggestion reducing mana cost of of Mind Blast, Devouring Plague and Shadow Word: Death. Im aware of the fact you can not gear the same way as would on normal server but, stacking mana sustain makes the class not worth bringing over any other caster who does not have to do that.
My other suggestion is to scale down Shadowfiends damage, because its burst is really high. Instead I think translating those numbers into small buff to all of the priests DoTs is a better idea.

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Mizzeeh
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#2 » Post by Mizzeeh » 09 Jul 2017 22:50

Hi, shadowpriests already received a mana efficiency buff right when TBC released. I cannot speak for whether the devs are planning anything right now, but I would caution handing out too many buffs too early because that might just translate into nerfs later on when you get out of pre-bis gear and start raiding on a consistent basis.

5-mans were never kind to shadowpriest mana and pre-bis lacks a lot in terms of base stats, the mana will be a lot better later on.

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keksimus679
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#3 » Post by keksimus679 » 11 Jul 2017 02:33

Yes it might get better later on maybe at end of t6, noones talking about spriest in 5 mans here, we have had quite a few ppl attempt shadow priest in our guild and even though its like one of the lowest dps even without mana issues - the mana issues make it completely unplayable, the class would be average if it just got its mana issues fixed

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Mizzeeh
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#4 » Post by Mizzeeh » 11 Jul 2017 03:20

You see, the reason I have an issue taking comments like this serious is that people like to toss out huge claims without backing them up, and then I go into our logs and see something completely different staring me in the face, here, let me show you.

Attumen, Shadowpriest #1
Moroes, Shadowpriest #2
Maiden, Shadowpriest top caster
Curator, Shadowpriest #2

I could go on like this but I think we get the point.

Now do shadowpriests have mana issues? Yes. Will they get better? Yes. Are they top dog dps at the moment? No. But are they completely unplayable? Absolutely not. They're a very decent dps class that brings 2 amazing buffs (replenishment and 3% hit), and have one of the highest survivability/self healing out of any class which can be very important for many fights.

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Kailen
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#5 » Post by Kailen » 11 Jul 2017 12:51

You are only showing a perspective that fits your argument. Ofc he wont have any problems on short encounters, also would hardy call it a comparison with mage doing 1k dps. If you want to analyze data and post it here at least do it properly, furthermore I do not see why the same was not applied to protection paladins, they would get better with time too wouldnt they?

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#6 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 11 Jul 2017 13:02

Well, post your evidence for the contrary. I think that was his point - that you didn't supply any.

To me, this seems like a gear/consumables/enchant/gemming issue rather than a class one. Many people complain about mana when they first reach 70. All our base mana levels are significantly higher than at 60, and as spells are based on a % of your base mana, mana costs are also much inflated from 60. I'm not sure a class rebalance should be used to solve what gear can do already.

EDIT - Looking at Remix's armory page, he has what I thought he might: A PVE spec with Spirit Tap. Perhaps that also may be your solution to the mana problem.
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Mizzeeh
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#7 » Post by Mizzeeh » 11 Jul 2017 13:50

What are you even talking about? One of those fights is 9.5 mins long and another just over 10 minutes, hardly what I'd call "short encounters", in addition Maiden almost 7 mins as well, only Attumen is what I'd call a short fight clocking in at just under 5 mins.

The reason I didn't show more fights is because the remaining fights is 1) an AoE fest (yes, his dps will suffer there), 2) a high movement fight (where he topped dps again), 3) a fight with special buffs that artificially increase your damage and then Prince&Nightbane which I honestly didn't bother to look up. But for what it's worth he was also top caster/2nd dps behind our Ret on both Nightbane and across all Malchezaar attempts(including kill).

As for our dps, realize that the group has no shaman, ergo no bloodlust or totems, and that a lot of these fights have aspects which may reduce overall dps. Bearing that in mind every single last one of our dps is pulling competitive numbers and you could put them against anyone on the server and have them compete, I've personally seen dps parses from some of the top players on the server scoring lower than our members on some of the fights I linked.


As for protection paladins, the same thought experiment WAS applied to them, people asked themselves what their threat was like now and how it was likely to change moving into raids and then into later tiers of raiding, and you know what they found?

They realized that protection paladins would see an initial spike in threat relative to dps when they got out of some of their pre-bis gear which is generally loaded with stamina and low on strength and also from getting 2p t4 which is a high threat booster, they would then progressively become worse and worse as their avoidance increased and DPS outscaled them by far, to the point where they would run into major threat issues again in t5 and even moreso in t6+.

You should also consider how much of an effect it has on 5-mans. Should things be balanced around 5-mans over raids? No, but if a shadowpriest goes oom in 5-mans he loses dps and has to spend more time drinking. If a paladin can't keep threat in 5-mans he causes the deaths of his fellow group members and becomes a useless tank that nobody wants to play with, and as opposed to shadowpriests, this mostly gets worse with raid gear since they have to compete with the gear their dps has, not just the gear they have.

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keksimus679
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#8 » Post by keksimus679 » 11 Jul 2017 14:59

Mizzeeh wrote:
11 Jul 2017 13:50
What are you even talking about? One of those fights is 9.5 mins long and another just over 10 minutes, hardly what I'd call "short encounters", in addition Maiden almost 7 mins as well, only Attumen is what I'd call a short fight clocking in at just under 5 mins.

The reason I didn't show more fights is because the remaining fights is 1) an AoE fest (yes, his dps will suffer there), 2) a high movement fight (where he topped dps again), 3) a fight with special buffs that artificially increase your damage and then Prince&Nightbane which I honestly didn't bother to look up. But for what it's worth he was also top caster/2nd dps behind our Ret on both Nightbane and across all Malchezaar attempts(including kill).

As for our dps, realize that the group has no shaman, ergo no bloodlust or totems, and that a lot of these fights have aspects which may reduce overall dps. Bearing that in mind every single last one of our dps is pulling competitive numbers and you could put them against anyone on the server and have them compete, I've personally seen dps parses from some of the top players on the server scoring lower than our members on some of the fights I linked.


As for protection paladins, the same thought experiment WAS applied to them, people asked themselves what their threat was like now and how it was likely to change moving into raids and then into later tiers of raiding, and you know what they found?

They realized that protection paladins would see an initial spike in threat relative to dps when they got out of some of their pre-bis gear which is generally loaded with stamina and low on strength and also from getting 2p t4 which is a high threat booster, they would then progressively become worse and worse as their avoidance increased and DPS outscaled them by far, to the point where they would run into major threat issues again in t5 and even moreso in t6+.

You should also consider how much of an effect it has on 5-mans. Should things be balanced around 5-mans over raids? No, but if a shadowpriest goes oom in 5-mans he loses dps and has to spend more time drinking. If a paladin can't keep threat in 5-mans he causes the deaths of his fellow group members and becomes a useless tank that nobody wants to play with, and as opposed to shadowpriests, this mostly gets worse with raid gear since they have to compete with the gear their dps has, not just the gear they have.
mr mizzeh i would like to point out that noone cares about 5 man dungeons, noone has mentioned them at any point. Fitzpatrick ur post is not even worth a response. Anyways mr mizzeh can u give us proof that u didnt have 2-3 druid innervating remix throughout the whole fight? wheres the mana gained tab.

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#9 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 11 Jul 2017 15:16

Instead of assuming everything else is wrong, demanding change to the server, and just generally being a dick to people trying to help you, why don't you post your character name so that SPriests without issues can actually help you. You can be defensive, or you can fix the problem, but you can't do both.
Last edited by Fitzpatrick on 11 Jul 2017 15:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Mizzeeh
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#10 » Post by Mizzeeh » 11 Jul 2017 15:31

This is getting ridiculous, here is our >10 minute long Curator, you can see he receives no innervates, he's not in a spellsurge group and he has no mana tide, all of which could easily be par for the course for dps classes struggling for mana since it's currently such a non-issue for healers.

http://imgur.com/a/qJ0jr

I bring up 5-man dungeons to contrast Prot Pala threat struggles to Shadowpriest struggles, I also know who neither of you are since there are no lvl 70 characters with names similar to yours and raids only just released with only 3 guilds clearing them so far, so it's reasonable to assume that the majority of your experience comes from 5-mans.

Now, the onus isn't on me to somehow prove that shadowpriests are gods, I have no vested interest in KEEPING SHADOWPRIESTS DOWN. You're the ones who came here and claimed first off that shadowpriests needed changes, secondly that they were UNPLAYABLE and then accused me of cherrypicking and somehow maliciously trying to hide the fact that we're feeding shadowpriests innervate just to skew the numbers.

Meanwhile you have not brought forth one single credible evidence to back up your claim that shadowpriests are unplayable.

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flosr1
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Re: Shadow priest rebalance suggestion

#11 » Post by flosr1 » 12 Jul 2017 13:00

do you use all consumables that are available? like dark rune, DM drink with 25 spirit? I know it might be annoying to go back to lvl 60 zones and farm that. but I am farming elemental earth too for my feral druid, because elemental sharpening stones are the only viable weapon enhancement.

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