Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

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Justicelight
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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#61 » Post by Justicelight » 27 Dec 2019 00:54

exchanger1 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 04:08
smartos wrote:
24 Sep 2018 10:22
+1 to exhangher1.
Nice to hear from u again bruh.
Hey man long time no see, hope all is well with you
Hey Crown, good to see u are passing by from time to time.

I`ve got two questions:

1. Regarding Frost DK spec, more specifically 2 talents: Black Ice [5 points] and Glacier Rot [3 points]. I`m seeing almost all the dks on TW still playing, that they go 2/5 Black ice and 3/3 Glacier Rot, while your spec goes 5/5 Black Ice and 0/3 Glacier Rot. Could you explain a bit why your choice is better? or it needs update?

2. Regarding Blood DK bis gear: i`m having blood as offspec,since the gemming is similar to frost. This means that when I equip the blood bis gear, my hit rating spikes to 293. This is because I keep the 3x 10 str 10 hit gems from the Frost Bis list. Since I have 30 extra hit, would it be a viable choice to swap to FLESHRENDING GAUNTLETS (139 str, 74 haste, 1 red + 1 yellow) instead of using T10HC hands (147 str, 82 hit, 1 yellow) ?

The numbers will look like this:

Fleshrending Gauntlets stats difference vs T10HC:
gems:
1) 10 exp 10 hit: same as in T10
2) extra gem: 10 st 10 hit
Strength calc: 139 + 10 (from extragem) + 2 (from bonus diference) = 151 - 147 (T10 str) = + 4 strength bonus

Overall stats difference:
- 36 strength: due to replacing str food with hit food
- 2 hit: 202 hit with no gloves + 10 (from (2) gem) + 40 (food) + 10 (from (1) gem) = 262 total hit rating (vs bis list 264)
+ 74 haste
~ crit rating is the same

Is 74 haste worth losing 36 strength and going hit undercap to 262? Also, i supose that if i manage to get draenei in party, using Fleshrending Gauntlets will definetly give me a dps boost (won`t touch gems from other gears, since draenei buff is temporary depending on raid composition)
Image
"I write about the power of trying, because I want to be okay with failing. I write about generosity because I battle selfishness. I write about joy because I know sorrow. I write about faith because I almost lost mine, and I know what it is to be broken and in need of redemption. I write about gratitude because I am thankful - for all of it."

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#62 » Post by exchanger1 » 27 Dec 2019 18:48

Jarjke wrote:
26 Dec 2019 06:55
Your rotations utilize the Blood Tap trick but don't inform the reader how exactly it works.

Razorice always procs off mainhand.
And the reason FC is better on OH is that Threat of Thassarian off-hand special strikes can not miss, dodge or parry, which results in higher PPM.
Yeah, I have left some things here and there, I can't edit the guide but I can post here. Purpose of BT refreshing is to instantly re-activate the blood rune(death rune after blood strike/pestilence) which allows for more GCD's and more runic power as well. Think of it like mini ERW (Empowered Rune Weapon), works the same way but on a smaller scale

What you said about FC is debatable, because when I did simulations I saw that FC had higher PPM on MH than on OH (due to more melee's on MH than on OH iirc), but the reason for Razorice being on MH is because Razorice's damage is worth more than 0.1 or 0.2% of increase of FC's PPM. However the difference is very slight (1-5 DPS more) i

To add on Threat of Thassarian; It's the similar thing with expertise, runes that utilized a special that was dodged refresh in 0.3 seconds or something, which is the reason for not-so-high value of expertise as well.
Last edited by exchanger1 on 27 Dec 2019 19:28, edited 1 time in total.
Crown aka Poslednji

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exchanger1
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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#63 » Post by exchanger1 » 27 Dec 2019 19:06

Justicelight wrote:
27 Dec 2019 00:54
exchanger1 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 04:08
smartos wrote:
24 Sep 2018 10:22
+1 to exhangher1.
Nice to hear from u again bruh.
Hey man long time no see, hope all is well with you
Hey Crown, good to see u are passing by from time to time.

I`ve got two questions:

1. Regarding Frost DK spec, more specifically 2 talents: Black Ice [5 points] and Glacier Rot [3 points]. I`m seeing almost all the dks on TW still playing, that they go 2/5 Black ice and 3/3 Glacier Rot, while your spec goes 5/5 Black Ice and 0/3 Glacier Rot. Could you explain a bit why your choice is better? or it needs update?

2. Regarding Blood DK bis gear: i`m having blood as offspec,since the gemming is similar to frost. This means that when I equip the blood bis gear, my hit rating spikes to 293. This is because I keep the 3x 10 str 10 hit gems from the Frost Bis list. Since I have 30 extra hit, would it be a viable choice to swap to FLESHRENDING GAUNTLETS (139 str, 74 haste, 1 red + 1 yellow) instead of using T10HC hands (147 str, 82 hit, 1 yellow) ?

The numbers will look like this:

Fleshrending Gauntlets stats difference vs T10HC:
gems:
1) 10 exp 10 hit: same as in T10
2) extra gem: 10 st 10 hit
Strength calc: 139 + 10 (from extragem) + 2 (from bonus diference) = 151 - 147 (T10 str) = + 4 strength bonus

Overall stats difference:
- 36 strength: due to replacing str food with hit food
- 2 hit: 202 hit with no gloves + 10 (from (2) gem) + 40 (food) + 10 (from (1) gem) = 262 total hit rating (vs bis list 264)
+ 74 haste
~ crit rating is the same

Is 74 haste worth losing 36 strength and going hit undercap to 262? Also, i supose that if i manage to get draenei in party, using Fleshrending Gauntlets will definetly give me a dps boost (won`t touch gems from other gears, since draenei buff is temporary depending on raid composition)
Hey man good to see you here too

Just saw on the link of talent build that it has Black Ice on 5/5 lol. Idk what happened on the talent builder but I went religiously on 2/5 Black Ice since making this guide in 2014, and on page 3 you have an explanation of the reason for 2/5 of Black Ice. Glacier Rot needs to be 3/3 as well

I think that 74 haste has higher EP than 36 str as Blood, but you haven't included hit past 264 which is melee hit and it still has it's own value (melee hit cap is a huge number, like 27% or something) I'd suggest that you go with T10 just so that you cap yourself for specials, since both options are pretty similar dps wise
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Justicelight
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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#64 » Post by Justicelight » 27 Dec 2019 21:10

exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 19:06
Justicelight wrote:
27 Dec 2019 00:54
exchanger1 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 04:08


Hey man long time no see, hope all is well with you
Hey Crown, good to see u are passing by from time to time.

I`ve got two questions:

1. Regarding Frost DK spec, more specifically 2 talents: Black Ice [5 points] and Glacier Rot [3 points]. I`m seeing almost all the dks on TW still playing, that they go 2/5 Black ice and 3/3 Glacier Rot, while your spec goes 5/5 Black Ice and 0/3 Glacier Rot. Could you explain a bit why your choice is better? or it needs update?

2. Regarding Blood DK bis gear: i`m having blood as offspec,since the gemming is similar to frost. This means that when I equip the blood bis gear, my hit rating spikes to 293. This is because I keep the 3x 10 str 10 hit gems from the Frost Bis list. Since I have 30 extra hit, would it be a viable choice to swap to FLESHRENDING GAUNTLETS (139 str, 74 haste, 1 red + 1 yellow) instead of using T10HC hands (147 str, 82 hit, 1 yellow) ?

The numbers will look like this:

Fleshrending Gauntlets stats difference vs T10HC:
gems:
1) 10 exp 10 hit: same as in T10
2) extra gem: 10 st 10 hit
Strength calc: 139 + 10 (from extragem) + 2 (from bonus diference) = 151 - 147 (T10 str) = + 4 strength bonus

Overall stats difference:
- 36 strength: due to replacing str food with hit food
- 2 hit: 202 hit with no gloves + 10 (from (2) gem) + 40 (food) + 10 (from (1) gem) = 262 total hit rating (vs bis list 264)
+ 74 haste
~ crit rating is the same

Is 74 haste worth losing 36 strength and going hit undercap to 262? Also, i supose that if i manage to get draenei in party, using Fleshrending Gauntlets will definetly give me a dps boost (won`t touch gems from other gears, since draenei buff is temporary depending on raid composition)
Hey man good to see you here too

Just saw on the link of talent build that it has Black Ice on 5/5 lol. Idk what happened on the talent builder but I went religiously on 2/5 Black Ice since making this guide in 2014, and on page 3 you have an explanation of the reason for 2/5 of Black Ice. Glacier Rot needs to be 3/3 as well

I think that 74 haste has higher EP than 36 str as Blood, but you haven't included hit past 264 which is melee hit and it still has it's own value (melee hit cap is a huge number, like 27% or something) I'd suggest that you go with T10 just so that you cap yourself for specials, since both options are pretty similar dps wise
Thanks for the fast answer, will change the spec accordingly. (even tough I`m starting to like blood spec more :D )
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"I write about the power of trying, because I want to be okay with failing. I write about generosity because I battle selfishness. I write about joy because I know sorrow. I write about faith because I almost lost mine, and I know what it is to be broken and in need of redemption. I write about gratitude because I am thankful - for all of it."

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rifokelt
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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#65 » Post by rifokelt » 31 Dec 2019 15:14

Spoiler:
Justicelight wrote:
27 Dec 2019 00:54
1. Regarding Frost DK spec, more specifically 2 talents: Black Ice [5 points] and Glacier Rot [3 points]. I`m seeing almost all the dks on TW still playing, that they go 2/5 Black ice and 3/3 Glacier Rot, while your spec goes 5/5 Black Ice and 0/3 Glacier Rot. Could you explain a bit why your choice is better? or it needs update?
Crown already mentioned it but if all the majority of dks on the server are playing like this then lol. Pepega talent choices.
Spoiler:
Justicelight wrote:
27 Dec 2019 00:54
2. Regarding Blood DK bis gear: i`m having blood as offspec,since the gemming is similar to frost. This means that when I equip the blood bis gear, my hit rating spikes to 293. This is because I keep the 3x 10 str 10 hit gems from the Frost Bis list. Since I have 30 extra hit, would it be a viable choice to swap to FLESHRENDING GAUNTLETS (139 str, 74 haste, 1 red + 1 yellow) instead of using T10HC hands (147 str, 82 hit, 1 yellow) ?

The numbers will look like this:

Fleshrending Gauntlets stats difference vs T10HC:
gems:
1) 10 exp 10 hit: same as in T10
2) extra gem: 10 st 10 hit
Strength calc: 139 + 10 (from extragem) + 2 (from bonus diference) = 151 - 147 (T10 str) = + 4 strength bonus

Overall stats difference:
- 36 strength: due to replacing str food with hit food
- 2 hit: 202 hit with no gloves + 10 (from (2) gem) + 40 (food) + 10 (from (1) gem) = 262 total hit rating (vs bis list 264)
+ 74 haste
~ crit rating is the same

Is 74 haste worth losing 36 strength and going hit undercap to 262? Also, i supose that if i manage to get draenei in party, using Fleshrending Gauntlets will definetly give me a dps boost (won`t touch gems from other gears, since draenei buff is temporary depending on raid composition)
Assuming this is a question directed for blood BiS list in particular,

1) 262 hit is 7.99%. Gemming/enchanting more is about 99.99% wasted stats. In other words, gemming or enchanting for more hit is an absolutely awful idea. Both unholy and blood BiS setups have this "issue" where they sit just under the hit cap.
2) 74 haste is likely better than 36 strength, if we are strictly comparing the stats. For 36 strength to be better than 74 haste, the EP of strength needs to be twice as big as haste's EP. Kahories can't evaluate blood properly, but even so it's rather evident that haste isn't such a bad stat for blood spec.

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Jarjke
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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#66 » Post by Jarjke » 31 Dec 2019 18:24

exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 18:48
Jarjke wrote:
26 Dec 2019 06:55
Your rotations utilize the Blood Tap trick but don't inform the reader how exactly it works.

Razorice always procs off mainhand.
And the reason FC is better on OH is that Threat of Thassarian off-hand special strikes can not miss, dodge or parry, which results in higher PPM.
Yeah, I have left some things here and there, I can't edit the guide but I can post here. Purpose of BT refreshing is to instantly re-activate the blood rune(death rune after blood strike/pestilence) which allows for more GCD's and more runic power as well. Think of it like mini ERW (Empowered Rune Weapon), works the same way but on a smaller scale

What you said about FC is debatable, because when I did simulations I saw that FC had higher PPM on MH than on OH (due to more melee's on MH than on OH iirc), but the reason for Razorice being on MH is because Razorice's damage is worth more than 0.1 or 0.2% of increase of FC's PPM. However the difference is very slight (1-5 DPS more) i

To add on Threat of Thassarian; It's the similar thing with expertise, runes that utilized a special that was dodged refresh in 0.3 seconds or something, which is the reason for not-so-high value of expertise as well.
You're mixing a lot of unrelated information together for no reason so I'll address it by parts.
First of all I didn't ask for you to explain to me what BT trick is, I'm well aware of what it does and how it does it.
What I said was that you didn't explain your readers why it happens, to educate them further on how to understand DK mechanics, which was unfortunate to see.
exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 18:48
What you said about FC is debatable, because when I did simulations I saw that FC had higher PPM on MH than on OH (due to more melee's on MH than on OH iirc), but the reason for Razorice being on MH is because Razorice's damage is worth more than 0.1 or 0.2% of increase of FC's PPM. However the difference is very slight (1-5 DPS more) i
No, it isn't debatable and the majority of DKs are just misinformed, apparently you too.
You don't use Razorice on MH because of the damage, there is no damage difference.
Razorice always but ALWAYS does it's damage based on MH damage, there is no benefit on having RI on OH or MH.
exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 18:48
To add on Threat of Thassarian; It's the similar thing with expertise, runes that utilized a special that was dodged refresh in 0.3 seconds or something, which is the reason for not-so-high value of expertise as well.
Also, no, you're mixing 2 things together, yet again.
What happens rune-wise after an ability was dodged or parried is something else entirely than what I'm discussing.
I'm talking about ToT interaction with OH special abilities.

The only reason you're using Fallen Crusader on OH is beacuse of Threat of Thassarian.
Threat of Thassarian OH special strikes cannot miss, parry or dodge, as I said earlier.
Which results in higher PPM since OH misses less often than MH.

The only difference I can argue with is auto-attacks (white damage), like any other dual-wielders out there if our MH misses so does our OH. But this only occurs with white-damage.

This is bugged where I play atm, I don't know if it is also bugged on TrueWoW but this is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#67 » Post by Justicelight » 08 Jan 2020 14:49

Does anyone have access to the SimulationCraft script used for computing the frost dk rotation when calculating DPS?
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"I write about the power of trying, because I want to be okay with failing. I write about generosity because I battle selfishness. I write about joy because I know sorrow. I write about faith because I almost lost mine, and I know what it is to be broken and in need of redemption. I write about gratitude because I am thankful - for all of it."

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#68 » Post by rifokelt » 08 Jan 2020 18:27

Justicelight wrote:
08 Jan 2020 14:49
Does anyone have access to the SimulationCraft script used for computing the frost dk rotation when calculating DPS?
Not sure what you're asking here, if you have simcraft on your PC, the code for the program itself is completely visible. Aside from the imported Qt libraries it uses(that don't really concern you), it is written in C++ and any text editor (even bare notepad) can read the .h/.cpp files though I do not recommend using notepad to read them. Notepad++, Sublime or any IDE (that I'm aware of) will be able to read the files and present them to you in a coherent way. You should be aware that if you are not familiar with how the language works, you're unlikely to understand what the program does internally.

If you don't have simcraft, I've uploaded my copy here:
https://dox.abv.bg/download?id=f7109ccb4e#

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#69 » Post by Justicelight » 09 Jan 2020 17:35

rifokelt wrote:
08 Jan 2020 18:27
Justicelight wrote:
08 Jan 2020 14:49
Does anyone have access to the SimulationCraft script used for computing the frost dk rotation when calculating DPS?
Not sure what you're asking here, if you have simcraft on your PC, the code for the program itself is completely visible. Aside from the imported Qt libraries it uses(that don't really concern you), it is written in C++ and any text editor (even bare notepad) can read the .h/.cpp files though I do not recommend using notepad to read them. Notepad++, Sublime or any IDE (that I'm aware of) will be able to read the files and present them to you in a coherent way. You should be aware that if you are not familiar with how the language works, you're unlikely to understand what the program does internally.

If you don't have simcraft, I've uploaded my copy here:
https://dox.abv.bg/download?id=f7109ccb4e#
Thank you. I am currently Ovale rotation addon which has the option to write code. The script language is compatible with simcraft, so I want to embed the latter code for rotation in the Ovale addon.
Image
"I write about the power of trying, because I want to be okay with failing. I write about generosity because I battle selfishness. I write about joy because I know sorrow. I write about faith because I almost lost mine, and I know what it is to be broken and in need of redemption. I write about gratitude because I am thankful - for all of it."

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#70 » Post by Jarjke » 11 Jan 2020 21:42

Justicelight wrote:
09 Jan 2020 17:35
rifokelt wrote:
08 Jan 2020 18:27
Justicelight wrote:
08 Jan 2020 14:49
Does anyone have access to the SimulationCraft script used for computing the frost dk rotation when calculating DPS?
Not sure what you're asking here, if you have simcraft on your PC, the code for the program itself is completely visible. Aside from the imported Qt libraries it uses(that don't really concern you), it is written in C++ and any text editor (even bare notepad) can read the .h/.cpp files though I do not recommend using notepad to read them. Notepad++, Sublime or any IDE (that I'm aware of) will be able to read the files and present them to you in a coherent way. You should be aware that if you are not familiar with how the language works, you're unlikely to understand what the program does internally.

If you don't have simcraft, I've uploaded my copy here:
https://dox.abv.bg/download?id=f7109ccb4e#
Thank you. I am currently Ovale rotation addon which has the option to write code. The script language is compatible with simcraft, so I want to embed the latter code for rotation in the Ovale addon.
You should use Kahorie's DK simulator instead of SimulationCraft for DKs in 3.3.5

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exchanger1
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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#71 » Post by exchanger1 » 25 Jan 2020 18:22

Jarjke wrote:
31 Dec 2019 18:24
exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 18:48
Jarjke wrote:
26 Dec 2019 06:55
Your rotations utilize the Blood Tap trick but don't inform the reader how exactly it works.

Razorice always procs off mainhand.
And the reason FC is better on OH is that Threat of Thassarian off-hand special strikes can not miss, dodge or parry, which results in higher PPM.
Yeah, I have left some things here and there, I can't edit the guide but I can post here. Purpose of BT refreshing is to instantly re-activate the blood rune(death rune after blood strike/pestilence) which allows for more GCD's and more runic power as well. Think of it like mini ERW (Empowered Rune Weapon), works the same way but on a smaller scale

What you said about FC is debatable, because when I did simulations I saw that FC had higher PPM on MH than on OH (due to more melee's on MH than on OH iirc), but the reason for Razorice being on MH is because Razorice's damage is worth more than 0.1 or 0.2% of increase of FC's PPM. However the difference is very slight (1-5 DPS more) i

To add on Threat of Thassarian; It's the similar thing with expertise, runes that utilized a special that was dodged refresh in 0.3 seconds or something, which is the reason for not-so-high value of expertise as well.
You're mixing a lot of unrelated information together for no reason so I'll address it by parts.
First of all I didn't ask for you to explain to me what BT trick is, I'm well aware of what it does and how it does it.
What I said was that you didn't explain your readers why it happens, to educate them further on how to understand DK mechanics, which was unfortunate to see.
exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 18:48
What you said about FC is debatable, because when I did simulations I saw that FC had higher PPM on MH than on OH (due to more melee's on MH than on OH iirc), but the reason for Razorice being on MH is because Razorice's damage is worth more than 0.1 or 0.2% of increase of FC's PPM. However the difference is very slight (1-5 DPS more) i
No, it isn't debatable and the majority of DKs are just misinformed, apparently you too.
You don't use Razorice on MH because of the damage, there is no damage difference.
Razorice always but ALWAYS does it's damage based on MH damage, there is no benefit on having RI on OH or MH.
exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 18:48
To add on Threat of Thassarian; It's the similar thing with expertise, runes that utilized a special that was dodged refresh in 0.3 seconds or something, which is the reason for not-so-high value of expertise as well.
Also, no, you're mixing 2 things together, yet again.
What happens rune-wise after an ability was dodged or parried is something else entirely than what I'm discussing.
I'm talking about ToT interaction with OH special abilities.

The only reason you're using Fallen Crusader on OH is beacuse of Threat of Thassarian.
Threat of Thassarian OH special strikes cannot miss, parry or dodge, as I said earlier.
Which results in higher PPM since OH misses less often than MH.

The only difference I can argue with is auto-attacks (white damage), like any other dual-wielders out there if our MH misses so does our OH. But this only occurs with white-damage.

This is bugged where I play atm, I don't know if it is also bugged on TrueWoW but this is irrelevant to the matter at hand.
#1 There is clear damage difference on Razorice lol, just sim it by putting razorice on MH then on OH

#2 Fallen Crusader has higher PPM on MH than on OH (by like 0.1%), sim that as well and you will see for yourself.

Sim shows that case #1 generates more DPS than case #2 (in other words, dps you get from razorice on mh is higher than dps that comes from 0.1 more of FC's PPM)
What happens rune-wise after an ability was dodged or parried is something else entirely than what I'm discussing
First of all I didn't ask for you to explain to me what BT trick is, I'm well aware of what it does and how it does it.
What I said was that you didn't explain your readers why it happens, to educate them further on how to understand DK mechanics, which was unfortunate to see.
I am updating the guide as pages go by, I cannot access to Crown forum acc to update the OP, that is why it appears to be "unrelated"

I cannot be misinformed, because every piece of information I posted itt is from Kahorie sims, you are correct about writing in OP about BT though
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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#72 » Post by exchanger1 » 25 Jan 2020 18:36

Crown already mentioned it but if all the majority of dks on the server are playing like this then lol. Pepega talent choices.
They are playing like that because they read and applied the guide and/or saw benefit of frost ArP first hand (during my raiding days as arp (2014-2016)
Kahories can't evaluate blood properly
It can actually but Blood is kinda tricky, because you need rotation instead of priority in kahorie, and even at perfect rotation it still is inferior to frost/uh

Off-topic:
Speaking of which Unholy is pretty equal which is really interesting, but you need Ghoul Frenzy talent (even higher priority than keeping dots up iirc) and you get 150 more DPS this way
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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#73 » Post by Jarjke » 27 Jan 2020 07:37

exchanger1 wrote:
25 Jan 2020 18:22
Jarjke wrote:
31 Dec 2019 18:24
exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 18:48


Yeah, I have left some things here and there, I can't edit the guide but I can post here. Purpose of BT refreshing is to instantly re-activate the blood rune(death rune after blood strike/pestilence) which allows for more GCD's and more runic power as well. Think of it like mini ERW (Empowered Rune Weapon), works the same way but on a smaller scale

What you said about FC is debatable, because when I did simulations I saw that FC had higher PPM on MH than on OH (due to more melee's on MH than on OH iirc), but the reason for Razorice being on MH is because Razorice's damage is worth more than 0.1 or 0.2% of increase of FC's PPM. However the difference is very slight (1-5 DPS more) i

To add on Threat of Thassarian; It's the similar thing with expertise, runes that utilized a special that was dodged refresh in 0.3 seconds or something, which is the reason for not-so-high value of expertise as well.
You're mixing a lot of unrelated information together for no reason so I'll address it by parts.
First of all I didn't ask for you to explain to me what BT trick is, I'm well aware of what it does and how it does it.
What I said was that you didn't explain your readers why it happens, to educate them further on how to understand DK mechanics, which was unfortunate to see.
exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 18:48
What you said about FC is debatable, because when I did simulations I saw that FC had higher PPM on MH than on OH (due to more melee's on MH than on OH iirc), but the reason for Razorice being on MH is because Razorice's damage is worth more than 0.1 or 0.2% of increase of FC's PPM. However the difference is very slight (1-5 DPS more) i
No, it isn't debatable and the majority of DKs are just misinformed, apparently you too.
You don't use Razorice on MH because of the damage, there is no damage difference.
Razorice always but ALWAYS does it's damage based on MH damage, there is no benefit on having RI on OH or MH.
exchanger1 wrote:
27 Dec 2019 18:48
To add on Threat of Thassarian; It's the similar thing with expertise, runes that utilized a special that was dodged refresh in 0.3 seconds or something, which is the reason for not-so-high value of expertise as well.
Also, no, you're mixing 2 things together, yet again.
What happens rune-wise after an ability was dodged or parried is something else entirely than what I'm discussing.
I'm talking about ToT interaction with OH special abilities.

The only reason you're using Fallen Crusader on OH is beacuse of Threat of Thassarian.
Threat of Thassarian OH special strikes cannot miss, parry or dodge, as I said earlier.
Which results in higher PPM since OH misses less often than MH.

The only difference I can argue with is auto-attacks (white damage), like any other dual-wielders out there if our MH misses so does our OH. But this only occurs with white-damage.

This is bugged where I play atm, I don't know if it is also bugged on TrueWoW but this is irrelevant to the matter at hand.
#1 There is clear damage difference on Razorice lol, just sim it by putting razorice on MH then on OH

#2 Fallen Crusader has higher PPM on MH than on OH (by like 0.1%), sim that as well and you will see for yourself.

Sim shows that case #1 generates more DPS than case #2 (in other words, dps you get from razorice on mh is higher than dps that comes from 0.1 more of FC's PPM
You're relying too much on sims, you should know that sims can't model those differences. Since they are so minor that RNG seed is oftenly the deciding factor.
Also, if you understand the why and how of what I'm talking about you'd understand you can't really model it properly in a sim, since you are relying on the RNG of avoided abilities in Kahorie.

1# Razorice's 2% weapon damage should always use the MH's weapon damage range.
Easiest way to test this ingame is have a really weak MH with Razorice enchanted on OH and see if there's any Razor Frost damage difference, and there should be a big difference, most of Razor Frost damage is subject to resists and RNG.

The benefit of having FC on OH is that OH special strikes can never miss dodge or parry, if you check retail WoL parses you'd see that the amount of OH strikes is larger than MH strikes in all cases.
This doesn't apply if there's a significant speed difference between your weapons, FC goes on the slowest weapon first.
On retail if a MH special strike was missed dodged or parried the OH attack will still hit. (Only due to ToT!)

For a guy who says he's a well educated 3.3.5 DK you are missing some crucial base information apparently.
ToT interaction with OH hits is the reason top tier retail DKs use FC on OH. Most DKs had no idea this was the reason, you should Google a bit more on the subject.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/31sw ... details/7/

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#74 » Post by exchanger1 » 27 Jan 2020 18:57

Jarjke wrote:
27 Jan 2020 07:37
exchanger1 wrote:
25 Jan 2020 18:22
Jarjke wrote:
31 Dec 2019 18:24

You're mixing a lot of unrelated information together for no reason so I'll address it by parts.
First of all I didn't ask for you to explain to me what BT trick is, I'm well aware of what it does and how it does it.
What I said was that you didn't explain your readers why it happens, to educate them further on how to understand DK mechanics, which was unfortunate to see.


No, it isn't debatable and the majority of DKs are just misinformed, apparently you too.
You don't use Razorice on MH because of the damage, there is no damage difference.
Razorice always but ALWAYS does it's damage based on MH damage, there is no benefit on having RI on OH or MH.


Also, no, you're mixing 2 things together, yet again.
What happens rune-wise after an ability was dodged or parried is something else entirely than what I'm discussing.
I'm talking about ToT interaction with OH special abilities.

The only reason you're using Fallen Crusader on OH is beacuse of Threat of Thassarian.
Threat of Thassarian OH special strikes cannot miss, parry or dodge, as I said earlier.
Which results in higher PPM since OH misses less often than MH.

The only difference I can argue with is auto-attacks (white damage), like any other dual-wielders out there if our MH misses so does our OH. But this only occurs with white-damage.

This is bugged where I play atm, I don't know if it is also bugged on TrueWoW but this is irrelevant to the matter at hand.
#1 There is clear damage difference on Razorice lol, just sim it by putting razorice on MH then on OH

#2 Fallen Crusader has higher PPM on MH than on OH (by like 0.1%), sim that as well and you will see for yourself.

Sim shows that case #1 generates more DPS than case #2 (in other words, dps you get from razorice on mh is higher than dps that comes from 0.1 more of FC's PPM
You're relying too much on sims, you should know that sims can't model those differences. Since they are so minor that RNG seed is oftenly the deciding factor.
Also, if you understand the why and how of what I'm talking about you'd understand you can't really model it properly in a sim, since you are relying on the RNG of avoided abilities in Kahorie.

1# Razorice's 2% weapon damage should always use the MH's weapon damage range.
Easiest way to test this ingame is have a really weak MH with Razorice enchanted on OH and see if there's any Razor Frost damage difference, and there should be a big difference, most of Razor Frost damage is subject to resists and RNG.

The benefit of having FC on OH is that OH special strikes can never miss dodge or parry, if you check retail WoL parses you'd see that the amount of OH strikes is larger than MH strikes in all cases.
This doesn't apply if there's a significant speed difference between your weapons, FC goes on the slowest weapon first.
On retail if a MH special strike was missed dodged or parried the OH attack will still hit. (Only due to ToT!)

For a guy who says he's a well educated 3.3.5 DK you are missing some crucial base information apparently.
ToT interaction with OH hits is the reason top tier retail DKs use FC on OH. Most DKs had no idea this was the reason, you should Google a bit more on the subject.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/31sw ... details/7/
So you're saying that one 5-10 minute parse posted on WoL is credible more than different 5 minute parse generated in a period of 100 hours? It's the same as if you played perfectly for 100 hours, what it does is stabilizing the RNG so you can gather objective averaged out 5 minute parse, yes there is the rng seed but you can generate different rng seed and I guarantee that you'll get the same data

I am well aware of ToT's link to expertise,(you can't miss since you are special hit capped, and never parry realistically) it is shown in kahorie, I set kahorie so that MH and OH are shown seperately, like in that WoL parse but I get to also see MH/OH melee as well. I never denied this ToT trait, it obviously enhances your FC PPM rate but you are missing the point of my previous posts, it goes like this

FC on MH has higher PPM because the number of your melee MH exceeds your OH specials that your MH specials dodged [Under the condition of Frost BiS list, which is 24 expertise]

This is why Razorice is needed on MH, because of the higher frequency of MH melee attacks, which generate more "razorice hits"

Higher frequency of Razorice(RI on MH) hits provides more DPS than higher PPM of FC (FC on MH), which is why FC goes on OH

Either ways, dps difference is infinitesimal, runeforging is like one of the last priorities in terms of maximizing one's dps, this is not even worthy of debate, you seem to be stuck on these miniscule details. I have left out way more important things in this guide, such as CD stacking, addons, AMS maximizing per every fight, that can actually make the difference instead of worthless 1-3 DPS gain
Crown aka Poslednji

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#75 » Post by Justicelight » 11 Feb 2020 15:01

Crown wrote:
30 Nov 2014 19:56

2.2 Rune Grace Period priority

Once you have used all your runic abilities (Obliterate, Blood Strike..) as soon as they come off, use this priority system without going past the Rune Grace Period (2.5s) which translates to one global cooldown which is either
Full Runic Power Frost Strike or Killing Machine Frost Strike
Howling Blast with Rime
Frost Strike
Horn of Winter
Hey Crown, could you explain a bit why I shouldn`t go past 2.5 seconds? Would this place my rune cd back to 10 seconds, if time spent after rune became ready and when I used it passes 2.5 seconds?
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